Can I hand carry to an FFL in another state?

[bottom shelf]

I live in NC, and want to give a handgun to my brother in MD. He has several already that he bought in his home state of MD over the last 15 or so years. He asked a local FFL how to do the transfer, and the FFL told him I should ship him the pistol, and he'd do the transfer, and hold it the required 7 (or maybe 10) days. Then my brother should just come in, pay the fee, and pick it up. (He has a valid purchase permit already). So far, so good.

Then after mentioning to the dealer that I make several trips a year to his city, the FFL said in that case I should just bring it to him (the FFL) and my brother and myself would meet there to do the paperwork (I guess the 4471) and the dealer then holds it for the waiting period.

Although I've never heard a dealer tell somebody they can do it this way, I don't see anything wrong with it. Does anyone else? I'll ship it if I need to, but it would be nice to hand carry it and make a nice visit out of it.

 

[Oro]

Yes, that's all legal.

 

[71Commander]

It's legal

 

[mgkdrgn]

If the MD FFL is cool with it, go forth and deliver.

I've done the same thing several times myself, SC to TN.

 

[dirt_j00]

I've done this MS to AL. It's straight up.

 

[3daman!]

If its your brother, why do you need to involve an FFL/dealer anyway? Its a gift from a family member to another family member.

 

[NavyLCDR]

If its your brother, why do you need to involve an FFL/dealer anyway? Its a gift from a family member to another family member.

Because to not involve the FFL would be committing two Federal felonies, the recipient violates 18 USC 922 (a)(3) and the giver violates 18 USC 922 (a)(5). The recipient lives in Maryland - I wouldn't want to be receiving firearms illegally in MD.

 

[BeerSleeper]

What makes it illegal? Is it because it's a handgun, because it's an "over state lines" thing, or both?

Say I wanted to give a handgun to my brother. I'm a MO resident. He's an active duty Marine, in another state. Say I gave it to him, in MO, when he's home for Christmas. Legal to just give it to him, or necessary to involve an FFL?

Another curveball, if it's relevant, he may still have a MO driver's license. Does that have any bearing on his "official state of residence"?

 

[WNC Seabee]

I agree that what the OP suggest is legal, but I would still double check with the FFL that will be doing the transfer.

Another forum member and I live just across the border from each other here in NC/SC. We arranged a meet up at his FFL in SC to make my half of a trade and the FFL refused to do it. Long story, but the FFL holder was convinced that it was not legal for me to hand carry it to him, but would be perfectly legal for me to ship.

 

[Cyborg]

Holy Do Do!!

If I read 18 USC 922 (a)(3) and (5) correctly, both the person transporting the firearm AND the person receiving it are felons.

I wonder, and any legal eagles here please chime in, does 18 USC 922 (a) prohibit me from buying a gun privately in an another state than the one in which I normally reside and bringing it home (I live in Texas)? How about if it is given to me while I am in another state? My son in NM has been talking about giving me one of those butt ugly (but oh so functional) Hi-Point pistol caliber carbines for my birthday. We are travelling there this summer. If the giver purchases the firearm in their home state and gives it to someone from another state as a gift and the recipient then returns to their out-of-state home, was an offense committed?

Didn't realize the feds had this all wrapped up so tightly. They really have the interstate commerce clause stretched outta shape here, don't they?

 

[bottom shelf]

I agree that what the OP suggest is legal, but I would still double check with the FFL that will be doing the transfer.

I think that's a good idea. In this case, it was the FFL that suggested it.

Thanks for all the info guys. It has really helped.

 

[Quiet]

If I read 18 USC 922 (a)(3) and (5) correctly, both the person transporting the firearm AND the person receiving it are felons.

I wonder, and any legal eagles here please chime in, does 18 USC 922 (a) prohibit me from buying a gun privately in an another state than the one in which I normally reside and bringing it home (I live in Texas)? How about if it is given to me while I am in another state? My son in NM has been talking about giving me one of those butt ugly (but oh so functional) Hi-Point pistol caliber carbines for my birthday. We are travelling there this summer. If the giver purchases the firearm in their home state and gives it to someone from another state as a gift and the recipient then returns to their out-of-state home, was an offense committed?

Didn't realize the feds had this all wrapped up so tightly. They really have the interstate commerce clause stretched outta shape here, don't they?

You are correct and all your scenarios are violations of Federal laws.

Firearm transfers between non-licensed residents of different states must be done through a FFL dealer in the recipiant's state of residence.
There is no gift exemption to the Federal laws.
The only exemption is if the transfer is being done due to bequest/inheritance, which requires the giver to be dead.

These laws came about with the Gun Control Act of 1968.

 

[BeerSleeper]

Wow...this am complicated.

Most laws have some sort of practical purpose, some reason for being, a means to an end. This **** is just ridiculously complicated for the reason of nothing. What practical purpose is accomplished by all this ridiculousness?

 

[wishin]

Wow...this am complicated.

Most laws have some sort of practical purpose, some reason for being, a means to an end. This **** is just ridiculously complicated for the reason of nothing. What practical purpose is accomplished by all this ridiculousness?

Oh, gun laws have a means to an end - make it difficult for a non-criminal to get a firearm!

 

[NavyLCDR]

What makes it illegal? Is it because it's a handgun, because it's an "over state lines" thing, or both?

Say I wanted to give a handgun to my brother. I'm a MO resident. He's an active duty Marine, in another state. Say I gave it to him, in MO, when he's home for Christmas. Legal to just give it to him, or necessary to involve an FFL?

Another curveball, if it's relevant, he may still have a MO driver's license. Does that have any bearing on his "official state of residence"?

27 CFR 478.11 defines state of residency. State of residency is PRESENCE in a state with the INTENTION of MAKING a HOME in that state. A military member "home" on leave is not present in their home state with the intention of making a home in that state. 27 CFR 478.11 also explicitly defines state of residence for an active duty military member as the state that they have permanent orders to.

The ATF has further ruled, however, that both conditions may exist simultaneously and that a military member who is stationed in one state, but lives in another state and commutes to work daily, is a resident of both the state they have orders to (work in) and the state they are present in with the intention of making a home (sleep in).

What state your driver's license is from really has no bearing on what your state of residence is for firearms purposes, except that if your driver's license matches your actual state of residence, it enables you to purchase handguns from an FFL in that state.

And, btw, it is illegal because it is two private parties conducting a transaction across state lines. Handgun, rifle, or shotgun has no bearing on the legality.

 

[mgkdrgn]

What makes it illegal? Is it because it's a handgun, because it's an "over state lines" thing, or both?

Say I wanted to give a handgun to my brother. I'm a MO resident. He's an active duty Marine, in another state. Say I gave it to him, in MO, when he's home for Christmas. Legal to just give it to him, or necessary to involve an FFL?

Another curveball, if it's relevant, he may still have a MO driver's license. Does that have any bearing on his "official state of residence"?

Under those scenarios, if you are caught, you and your Bro will be spending some quality time at "Club Fed".

 

[BeerSleeper]

And, btw, it is illegal because it is two private parties conducting a transaction across state lines. Handgun, rifle, or shotgun has no bearing on the legality.

Aren't there some exceptions for rifles/shotguns? I was under the impression that if it is a long gun, generally you can purchase in your state of residence, AND adjoining states.

 

[Sam1911]

Aren't there some exceptions for rifles/shotguns? I was under the impression that if it is a long gun, generally you can purchase in your state of residence, AND adjoining states.

No. All firearms transfers across state lines (with the exception of firearms passed to heirs in a will) have to go through a dealer.

The "adjoining state" language dealt with whether you could purchase a long gun from a dealer in another state from your home state, but since 1986 that language has been nullified and you can purchase a rifle or shotgun in any other state from a dealer (so long as you follow all the laws of BOTH states).

 

[StarDust1]

27 CFR 478.11 defines state of residency. State of residency is PRESENCE in a state with the INTENTION of MAKING a HOME in that state. A military member "home" on leave is not present in their home state with the intention of making a home in that state. 27 CFR 478.11 also explicitly defines state of residence for an active duty military member as the state that they have permanent orders to.

The ATF has further ruled, however, that both conditions may exist simultaneously and that a military member who is stationed in one state, but lives in another state and commutes to work daily, is a resident of both the state they have orders to (work in) and the state they are present in with the intention of making a home (sleep in).

What state your driver's license is from really has no bearing on what your state of residence is for firearms purposes, except that if your driver's license matches your actual state of residence, it enables you to purchase handguns from an FFL in that state.

And, btw, it is illegal because it is two private parties conducting a transaction across state lines. Handgun, rifle, or shotgun has no bearing on the legality.

This begs an interesting question, if you own a lake property in an adjoining state and hold a DL for that state, but you're also a homeowner and resident of the other state, and you split your time evenly between the two, how does this affect gun purchases or private party sales?

 

[Sam1911]

Actually that question has been covered here several times. As far as the ATF is concerned you are a resident of the state in which you live while you, in fact, live there. It's right on the ATF's FAQ at www.atf.gov.

Q: What constitutes residency in a State?

The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present; the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one State and the member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby State to which he or she commutes each day, then the member has two States of residence and may purchase a firearm in either the State where the duty station is located or the State where the home is maintained. An alien who is legally in the United States is considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in that State and has resided in that State continuously for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale of the firearm. See also Item 5, “Sales to Aliens in the United States,” in the General Information section of this publication.

[18 U.S.C. 921(b), 922(a) (3), and 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.11]

Q: May a person (who is not an alien) who resides in one State and owns property in another State purchase a handgun in either State?

If a person maintains a home in 2 States and resides in both States for certain periods of the year, he or she may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State, purchase a handgun in that State. However, simply owning property in another State does not qualify the person to purchase a handgun in that State.

[27 CFR 478.11]

 

[StarDust1]

Actually that question has been covered here several times. As far as the ATF is concerned you are a resident of the state in which you live while you, in fact, live there. It's right on the ATF's FAQ at www.atf.gov.

So, splitting your time evenly qualifies as residency, and frees you up to LEGALLY transact firearms both in public & private! I had no idea....

 

[Sam1911]

Not even "evenly." If actually reside in one state (maintian a home there) for any period of time, the ATF views you as being a resident of that state while you're there.

It does raise a few "angels dancing on the heads of pins" kinds of questions -- and not many people (even dealers) know or follow the law as liberally as it is written, but there it is.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Well all this sounds like I need to call my Congressman. Not being able to buy a gun for a relative in another state without going through an FFL is the biggest truck load of BS I have ever seen.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Well all this sounds like I need to call my Congressman. Not being able to buy a gun for a relative in another state without going through an FFL is the biggest truck load of BS I have ever seen.

Good luck, it's been the law since 1964.

 

[lesgeaux]

How would this scenario work out. Brother from one state visits brother from the other state. First brother brings firearm and two brothers go out to the range for some practice. When first brother leaves he forgets firearm at other brothers house, or he just says, for other brother to keep firearm so when he visits again his firearm will be there waiting for him. Anyone know how that would shake out.