Competitive Shotgun

[Browning]

I've been looking into Texas Multi-Gun/3gun/USPSA. I have a decent chunk of what seems to be expected/needed from someone that's new to the sport except for a shotgun that'll at least let me be somewhat competitive and the equipment that helps you reload the shotgun more efficiently.

While I have several shotguns (a Rem 870 Marine Magnum and two 12 Ga. Rem 1100's [his & hers shotguns that we use for trap and skeet, a 28" inch and a 25 & 1/2 inch] would be the most likely to be used for this - the others are family heirlooms, ancient, ancient family heirlooms or single shot) for clays, dove and home defense, I don't have a semi-auto shotgun that'll really let me keep up with the tail end of the pack with some dignity ( ) after taking a look at some of the options and speed I've seen out there.

For the first bit I'll just be acclimatizing myself to the whole thing and more competing with myself to do a little better each time I go out there, but I'd like to put together something that'll let me do as well as I can. I'll probably use the Marine Magnum to start off simply because I'm not made of money and I can't/won't buy a shotgun for a sport I might not keep up with, but I'm curious as to what others are using for the shotgun portion of multi-gun/3gun portion.

I have the rifle and the pistol nailed down a dozen times over as well as a huge trunk full of belts, mag pouches, holsters and other accessories. Not much in the way of competitive shotgun stuff except for some double clay pouches and a couple cheap $7 shotgun shell bandoliers. Have to find my way through the shotgun shell accessories as well.

From what I've been seeing most competitors seem to be using the ...

• Rem 1100 Competition Master
• Mossberg 930 JM
• CZ 712 3-Gun G2
• Stoeger M3K

• Benelli M1 Super 90

• The FN SLP and the FN SLP MK I
• Beretta 1301 Competition
• Remington Versa Max 3-Gun Competition
• Benelli M2 Field w/parts added
• Benelli M2 - 3Gun from the Performance Shop

Does anyone have some experience with any of these shotguns?

At any rate I have a few different options. I'm leaning towards the Stoeger M3K if I buy a new shotgun fairly soon simply because of reviews, how it felt in the shop and because it of its lower cost but good pedigree (Benelli). I didn't really like how the Mossberg 930 JM felt/handled and haven't been able to find a CZ 712 3-Gun G2 to check out.

The options :

1) I could just shoot the Rem Marine Magnum for a short bit while saving for the Stoeger M3K and leave my Rem 1100 alone. I liked the feel of the Stoeger in the gunshop.

2) I could also just get some parts for my Rem 1100 to make it more competitive and run that. That's the least expensive option and I can afford that fairly easy.

The Parts :
21" inch Rem 1100 smooth bore slug barrel with rifles sights and Rem chokes - I've been seeing them used in ads for between $125 and $200. That gives me a more maneuverable barrel than what's on there now and gives me rifle sights for slugs (Yeah, I know you can just use a bead with slugs. I'm better with actual sights at distance), the extension adds 4 rds to its existing capacity (regular capacity is 4+1, so 8+1) and I can also re-convert it back to its original state of existence.

Brownells : Choate Rem 1100 Extended Bolt Handle (*Click*)

Cactus Tactical : Nordic Components +4 Rem 1100 Mag Extension (*Click*)

Brownells : Vang Comp - Rem 1100 Big Speed Safety (*Click*)

Brownells : Dave's Metal Works - Rem 1100 Easy Loader (*Click*)

Brownells : Rem gas ring and barrel seal kit (*Click*)

$150
$11
$75.99
$11.99
$39.99
$27.99
----------
$316.96

Downside to that is that some competitors say that the Rem 1100 won't stand up to hard use. That might be pure crap and just a case of the interwebz rumor mill running overtime as I have at least 7000+ rds on just my Rem 1100 (not to mention my wife's 1100) shooting clays or dove over the past 10 years just changing the seals a few times and the springs once (both were used guns to begin with).

3) I could shoot the Marine Mag for a bit and save up to get one of the higher end ($1200 to $1400) options like the Benelli M2, Remington Versa-Max or the FN SLP (there's no way I could afford the Benelli M2 from their performance shop) and skip over the 1100.

4) Combination. I could convert my Rem 1100 to use for the next year or so while saving for a higher end option (Rem Versa-Max or Benelli M2) next year.

5) Go with some other option that I haven't heard about which you will list now.

Thoughts? Experience with Texas Multi-gun/3gun in general or any of these shotguns in particular?

Would also be great if anyone had any experience with some shotgun shell caddy's or twin or quad loading systems that they've used. Leaning toward the twin loading system from Carbon Arms just because I've tried that for the past week and I have a decent start on loading twins. At this point quad loading (*Click*) is beyond me.

Been looking at these, but damn ... Lotta $.
Carbon Arms Twin Loading Shotgun System (*Click*)

Carbon Arms TWinS loading system (*Click*)

Thanks for any information in advance.

 

[Browning]

The Rem 1100 would end up looking somewhat like this (minus the Tac-Star side saddle, I intend on using Esstac shotgun cards).



I'd likely keep the wood on.

A guy on YouTube did something similar to what I was thinking of.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

You can run a pump as fast as a semi auto if you train. I've seen it done enough times in shotgun classes. In fact, it really isn't that hard. From a sport perspective, what will make or break you on the shotgun isn't shooting it, it's all about the speed of the reloads. You will be fine with your Rem pump. Enjoy.

 

[Browning]

Puts you at a distinct disadvantage at first though in terms of capacity (6+1 instead of 9 or 10+1) and it's hard to load twins and quads with that loading gate. Flips rds back at you.

 

[leadaddict]

I bought a Stoeger M3000 last year from MOA Precision. I decided on that over the M3K because, at the time, the M3K was harder to find and I wanted a 26" barrel. I'm very happy with the Stoeger so far.

I know one guy who tried to make an 1100 work for 3gun in a similar way to what you're thinking about. It turned out okay, but for the time and money in it he wished he'd have just bought the M3K now.

They guys I know who are really serious about 3Gun shoot Benelli or the FN. They seem very happy with their $1500+ guns.

You can definitely run the pump and have a good time. Nothing wrong with using it until you can get what you really want. I used my Mossberg 500 for a while. There are people that can run pumps faster than I can run my auto for sure. However, given the same amount of skill and practice the semi-auto will always be faster.

 

[Browning]

I bought a Stoeger M3000 last year from MOA Precision. I decided on that over the M3K because, at the time, the M3K was harder to find and I wanted a 26" barrel. I'm very happy with the Stoeger so far.

I know one guy who tried to make an 1100 work for 3gun in a similar way to what you're thinking about. It turned out okay, but for the time and money in it he wished he'd have just bought the M3K now.

Yeah, I'm kind of wondering if the Rem 1100 upgrades are a detour that I really need to take or if I should just get the M3K (I kinda like the 24" inch barrel, seems to swing/handle a tiny bit better).

Upgrading a shotgun that I have already sounds good in theory, not sure if it'll work out in practice. $316 of upgrades to the Rem 1100 is almost half of the M3K. Almost better to just get that.

They guys I know who are really serious about 3Gun shoot Benelli or the FN. They seem very happy with their $1500+ guns.

You can definitely run the pump and have a good time. Nothing wrong with using it until you can get what you really want. I used my Mossberg 500 for a while. There are people that can run pumps faster than I can run my auto for sure. However, given the same amount of skill and practice the semi-auto will always be faster.

Yeah, the Benelli M2 and the FN's are nice. Due to the price it might be something I'll make myself earn before I go get one of those.

 

[FL-NC]

Unless you are shooting in the HM class you will not be competitive with a trombone gun. The 1100/1187 are horrible for 3g, even with modifications. They shoot fine, but they can't be loaded near as fast as the other guns like the Stoeger, Benelli, FN, JM pro, etc.- they are designed for bird hunters who don't have the urgency of a competitor. All of my experience is with the Benellis and JM Pro. The JM pro costs about 1/2 as much as the Benelli or FN. I have used mine in 3 gun and I am totally satisfied. Maybe one day when I compete more seriously and more often, I may upgrade- but for now...... The only mods I did to my JM is a larger safety and a mesa side shell carrier. The hardest part about shotgun stages is keeping ammo in the thing. You must practice doing this with your belt loaders, left and right handed, more than actually shooting. There are some great videos on youtube showing tricks for load 2 and load 3. I use safariland double holders and some kydex pouches that help too. Forget those bandido bandoliers. I use Fiochi low recoil slugs for slug stages, they are very accurate in my Jm pro and cycle just fine.

 

[leadaddict]

Do you know if MOA still offers those shotgun packages?

Yes, I'm pretty sure they do. The best thing to do is just to give them a call. You can try email, but I've found the phone works much better with them.

 

[lmccrock]

My 3-gun fun has been dominated more by arthritis, than success, but I will share some experience.

If you are comfortable with a pump, start with that; I did with a Mossberg 590. Loading is where shotgun speed is, not shooting, especially for new shooters. Also, there are so many ways to carry shells, do not invest much until you shoot some matches. Depends on the match, but a pouch might work better than a bandolier. Go shoot a match to get your feet wet, to see what works for everybody.

I shot an 1100 Competition Master for many years. I would not recommend that, but if you have an 1100, add a magazine extension from Nordic and go shoot a match, especially if you are familiar with the controls. (BTW, the 1100 CM has not been made in several years. Later, there was an 1100 Tactical which has most of the CM features). I got a Versa Max a couple years ago, and I am much happier.

The 1100 has a reputation for great reliability...in clay sports where only 1-2 rounds are shot in a string. If you use it in 3-gun, carry a spare trigger group and replace the gas seals often. I had to.

Random thoughts...

I have the DMW loading gate on my 1100CM. It helps, but not much.

I know an FN shooter who would be perfectly happy wrapping it around a tree, so not very reliable, even after work. Like the 1100CM, looks good on paper.

The 930JM is popular because it is cheap. Some run, some don't. Expect to get it worked on, but you might be lucky and not have to. Actually, expect any 3-gun shotgun to need work. Benelli and Versamax need less work, 1100CM and 930JM need more.

Stoegers sound good. You might contact Hayes Custom Guns. They work on Stoegers, although their forte is Benelli (and really nice pistols).

You hear "buy once, cry once". By my math, that would be around $7k in guns to get started and that is impossible for most. Granted, you will end up with more than $7k in 3-gun guns, but not just to get started. Go shoot a match with what you have (do you see a recurring theme?).

Agree on the Fiocchi low recoil slugs. I use the 1 oz; 7/8 oz do not group very well in my Versamax (like, barely on a USPSA target at 50 yds) but your gun may like them. Remington Shur Shot Heavy Dove (from Academy) are good birdshot to start with; a bit heavy in recoil, but they will reliably knock down poppers. Shoot a match or 2 before you start customizing stages with light loads, heavy load, spreaders, etc.

The last thing is have a safe holster for your pistol. Be sure the pistol stays in place when you run. Maybe jump a couple times to test it (unloaded, to be safe).

Go shoot!

 

[browningguy]

I run a Benelli M2 Tactical, slightly modified, and a Mossberg 930 Rhythm (no longer made). The Rhythm is about the same as a JM except with a 12 round capacity and a fancy stock. To be honest I prefer the Mossberg 930, even though it's half the price of the Benelli it has a better trigger and just seems to be smoother. But the Benelli really shines in matches where you have a number of slug shots, it's really accurate with Fiocchi 2 3/4" 3/4 oz. Aero Slugs.

You can run a pump as fast as a semi auto if you train

Perhaps, but most likely not. I haven't seen anyone winning a 3 gun match with a pump, except of course in Heavy Metal where everyone has to run a pump. To run a pump quickly and smoothly requires not only many thousands of rounds of practice, but also a level of manual dexterity most people (me included) simply don't have.

As far as I know the JM930's haven't had any problems since the first year or so of manufacture, I still see a lot of them and they don't seem to have any problems these days. I've run my 930 Rhythm in Team Matches where everyone on the 5 man team wanted to shoot my shotgun, 200-500 rounds a day and it's never had a hiccup.

Go ahead and get the right tool for the job, whichever you choose. You can spend a considerable amount of time and money trying to modify a gun to work, but it probably won't be the same as one made for that purpose.

 

[1KPerDay]

Really depends on how you plan to load. If you weak hand load the 1100 will be fine. If you want to load twins or quads get the Stoeger. IMO.

 

[FL-NC]

I've had good luck in both accuracy and reliability on my JM PRO with the Fiochi low-recoil slugs. The gun also runs well with any wally world 12 gauge shot rounds I've put in it.

 

[Browning]

Alright, well thank you guys. Sold the 26" Rem 1100 and used the money plus a bit added to get the Stoeger M3K 24".





The +5 MOA Precision extension tube and the follower are on order. It came with three chokes total (cylinder, improved cylinder and a modified), a choke wrench, the manual and a sticker.

It's weird that MOA doesn't make a clamp for the barrel and extension tube. I guess I'll try out the one from Nordic Components. That'll probably fit.

Was all set to take it out today and it's raining. The dirt road to my range will be unpassable, so gotta wait.

Cleaning all the preservative off totally sucked, I've had SKS's that came dipped in cosmoline and wrapped in wax paper that were way easier on clean up. They must pour the stuff in with a container.

This thing is frigging light. Weighs maybe half of what that Rem 1100 did.

 

[1KPerDay]

Is that barrel ported?

 

[Browning]

thats some really nice stuffs and really affordable. i already have all the shotguns i need else i will be building one of these myself

Yeah, me too..(6 total)....but what's one more?

Besides I essentially had that 2nd Rem 1100 trade places with this one.

Is that barrel ported?

No.

Just a 24" inch barrel with chokes and a vent.

 

[Browning]

any idea how much it took to get this together?

$649.99
+54.11 in Tax
-----------------
Equals $710.09 for the shotgun out the door at Ray's Sporting Goods on Singleton Blvd in Dallas.

Then for parts it was ...
$79 for the MOA Precision +5 rd extension tube. (Meaning it'll have a 9+1 capacity)
$15 for the follower
With $0 tax and shipping thrown in that equals...
$94 for the parts (...that I'm impatiently awaiting)

________________

$94 + $710.09 ='s Total of $804.09

 

[leadaddict]

It's weird that MOA doesn't make a clamp for the barrel and extension tube.

Most people I know don't use a barrel clamp, even with longer tubes than that. Not really needed with a good extension and just one more variable to come loose or not be put back on the same way. It will likely change your point of impact with slugs, which could be good or bad depending on where it shoots to begin with.

 

[theautobahn]

Do NOT get a 930. I had issues and several people I know have issues.

I only shoot local club matches but ended up shelling (pun intended) out the money for a used Benelli M2 that was already done up.

However, based on my experience watching other people run guns and seeing what works / doesn't, I recommend the M3K as a good 3 gun shotgun.

Positives are that it's reliable and light and inexpensive. Downside is that because it's inertia driven, they sometimes won't cycle light loads reliably.

The piston guns (1100, 930) seem to have regular issues. The VersaMax's seem to run ok though.

 

[lmccrock]

Most people I know don't use a barrel clamp, even with longer tubes than that. Not really needed with a good extension and just one more variable to come loose or not be put back on the same way. It will likely change your point of impact with slugs, which could be good or bad depending on where it shoots to begin with.

A 9 round magazine probably does not stick out past a 24" barrel, so the mag tube will not the hits it would with a 21-22" barrel.

I use a clamp, but I also shoot an occasional night match so that is a secure place to put a light, at least using the Nordic clamp, and I do not want to swap it on and off and risk changing slug zero. It DOES have to be tightened periodically. BTW, if Nordic sells it, that is where I go first.

 

[Browning]

Alright, so this is where I'm at with that shotgun. The extension showed up.







The blue of the follower and the extension don't match. Talked to one of the guys at MOA Precision and they have a bunch of parts of various custom colors being anodized that will match that are supposed to be in stock in less than a month, so I'll probably be first in line to get those. If you can't tell I'm sick of plain black guns, I have dozens of those. Wanted something different. For those of you who don't like it, be glad ..... Flames and skulls and runes and/or cartoon characters were a real possibility.



Went to go wring it out, fired 200 rds of birdshot, 75 rds of 00 Buck and 5 slugs. Had one malfunction where a rd failed to go off. I'm chalking that up to an ammunition issue as the buckshot was some really old stuff that's been in my closet for years.

If you can't tell it's extremely hot and humid outside. I was out there long enough to see multiple groups of people arrive, shoot and leave. Mix of paper and steel left to right.

http://youtu.be/DUzL2eYFXHc

Skeet choke - buckshot - 10 yards


Skeet choke - I think it was #4 buck - approximately 45-50 yards


Modified choke - buckshot - approximately 45-50 yards


Slugs fired at approximately 50 yards landed at 5-6 inches low and to the right of the point of aim - thought I took a pic, apparently didn't - not too sure of what to do about that, haven't shot slugs a whole lot - the sights are on for birdshot and buckshot, I can't go messing around with the sights too much

A Nordic clamp is being shipped currently from MOA, so maybe the clamp will help with the POI of the slugs

_________________________________________________________________________________

Adding the MOA magazine extension to the Stoeger M3K :

When I initially went to add the magazine extension tube that I got in the mail from MOA Precision I ran into a little circular piece of metal located at the end of the tube that is apparently in both Stoeger M3000 & M3K shotguns. Finally found out that the little metal plug is called a Magazine Spring Retainer and its removal is necessary if you're going to add a magazine extension on either the Stoeger M3000 or the M3K.

Tried looking it up on YouTube about how to remove that piece and there wasn't much of anything on there.

The one video that I did find just showed the guys back for 2/3'rds of the video and he made it sound as though the removal is much harder than it is. On the second video the the guy doesn't actually take the spring retainer out on video, he just shows the piece (the black metal piece with the hole in the center with the blue arrows pointing to it - at any rate that was stuck at the end of the original tube).



Basically I just used a regular set of pliers that I had in my toolbox and used that to push/pull the spring retainer up and down to break it free and give it some wriggle room and then I just used a Phillips screwdriver and put it in the center hole of the retainer and firmly pried it out by pushing down on the screwdriver handle. On some of the older Stoeger M3000's there's also a metal pin that sticks up in the interior of the tube where you have to line up the slot in the retainer with that tab/pin before you pry it out of the tube. On those older M3000's you also have to use a round file or a Dremel to grind that tab/pin down for the spring to be able to freely move within the tube once you pry the retainer out. M3K's and later production M3000's apparently don't have that tab/pin sticking up, this one didn't have it.

Not going to ever put the spring retainer back in although there wasn't any damage to part and it I guess I could still use it, I put it back in the box.

At any rate that's all there was to it. Then I just screwed the lower cap and tube on, then put in the follower and spring, shoved the spring down (precut to the directions, I took off 4-5" inches and bent it appropriately) and put the last blue cap on.
_____________________________________________________________

I'm thinking about getting a full or extra-full choke for this. The birdshot mass was so weak at +40 yards that it barely even rang the plates that I was shooting at much less actually having a chance at knocking plates over.

Anyone familiar with turkey chokes?

_____________________________________________________________

I rarely name guns, but I've taken to calling it 'Blue'.

Must mean I like it.

 

[lmccrock]

I will read your detailed post in detail later, but a full choke may not help, since plates are rarely at 40 yards, so change ammo to something with more oomph (more pellets and more velocity), or ask if you can use buckshot. Also, a mix of plates, slugs, and aerial clays may be on the same stage, so the ammo mix is necessary anyway.

 

[Browning]

I will read your detailed post in detail later, but a full choke may not help, since plates are rarely at 40 yards, so change ammo to something with more oomph (more pellets and more velocity), or ask if you can use buckshot. Also, a mix of plates, slugs, and aerial clays may be on the same stage, so the ammo mix is necessary anyway.

So pretty much you just have to get good at loading specific shot for what's immediately next rather anyway rather just running a tighter choke with one type of load for most everything...bummer.

How are shooters managing that on divisions using mag fed semi's like the Saiga where it's more of a pain to load just one or two rds? Just a crap-ton o' mag changes?

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Congrats. As for the slugs, I'd suggest trying a wide variety of them to see if you can find one that gives a closer POA POI. That's probably the easiest solution.

 

[Browning]

Congrats. As for the slugs, I'd suggest trying a wide variety of them to see if you can find one that gives a closer POA POI. That's probably the easiest solution.

Yeah, I was going to try a wide selection of slugs. I mean I shot a measly 5 slugs as an afterthought and they were Wolf rifled slugs that I bought roughly 10 years ago.

It just kind of surprised me how far away the point of impact was.

Was also wondering what sights most everyone was using. From what I've seen most everyone is using the glowing bead sights of various colors (Tru-Glo or High-Viz or whatever). That surprised me a bit as there is a fair amount of slug use in 3-gun, but I guess everyone shoots their guns often enough to know where their gun is hitting.

I remember seeing one shotgun bead sight where it was a glowing triangle which I really liked, on my most used rifle (a 20" AR with a 1/7 twist from BCM) I have a Trijicon 2.5-10x56 Accupoint where it has a green triangle on top of a post and I really like that scope. So getting a triangle front sight for this new shotgun would just be sort of a continuation of that.

Eventually I'll run across that triangle shotgun sight again and I'll get it, in the meantime I'll follow your suggestion and get out there and see where different brands of slugs are printing. I also got that Nordic barrel/extension clamp and installed that, so that might make a difference as well. I haven't shot many slugs, to me shotguns are for shooting shot and so I've just always used either birdshot (usually Remington #6) or buckshot (when I've used buckshot I have a preference towards single 0, but if that's not available then 00 followed by #4 buck).

----

Edit :

One of these might be it.

Hi-Viz Fiber Optic Shotgun Sight (*Click for link*)


http://www.hivizsights.com/product/fp1001/

 

[Sheepdog1968]

I took a shotgun class once using a simple bead sight. POA POI was fine for bird and buck shot. The slugs shot high (either Federal truball or Breneke). When it came time
For slug work, I kept having to chant to my myself belly button belly button. It was the only way I could remember to alter my POA so that in like get a clean chest shot. You can certainly learn the offset. Finding slugs that are more aligned where the bird and buck shot hit just make things a little easier.