Control Under Rapid Fire

[Yehen]

So, I just bought a Beretta 92FS a couple weeks ago and I took it to the range for the first time yesterday. my groups aren't bad but I'm finding they're horrible under rapid fire (even from like 5-7 yards). I've been shooting for a couple years and I'd like to think that my control is decent but I'm wondering if anyone might have any tips for control under rapid fire.

The Beretta is pretty ergonomic for me and the 9mm is definitely not a lot of recoil but maybe my focus is on the wrong thing.

 

[sqlbullet]

Even experienced shooters have a tendency to jerk the trigger in rapid fire drills. The basics of good accuracy are the same fast or slow: Don't pull the trigger until you have a good sight picture, don't move the gun when you pull the trigger and follow through.

I would do two things.

1. Load some snap caps at random in your magazines. If you are jerking the trigger, it will manifest when you the snap caps.

2. Dry fire with a 'fast' trigger pull while balancing and empty case on the top of your gun muzzle. (This only works if you have a flat space near the muzzle to place a case).

 

[748]

Even a 9mm can be kind of hard to control under rapid fire, I am use to my 45 and 5.7mm. Drills and practice will only do so much you will have to slow down or go with another gun. Maybe you can find some lighter loads that might help some.
If you want to rapid fire some thing try a FN fiveseven pistol. I load mine up with 20 and some times 30 rounds of SS195 29gr ammo and you can dump the mag with out hardly any muzzel climb. It rapid fires like a dream.

I like that dry fire with a case sitting on your gun thing, I'll try that.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

One thing I find helps is a .22 conversion kit. I practice keeping my eyes focussed on the front sight as the gun recoils -- hard to do, but with practice it gets easier. Then you can transition to centerfire.

 

[Yehen]

I live in Canada so I think the Five Seven isn't allow (cause of the whole armour piercing thing) But I'd low to have one. I mag are restricted to 10 rds too.

Can someone explain the whole sight picture thing? The beretta just has the regular sights with the 3 white dots. I basically just line those up. Not sure if I'm doing something wrong there.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Can someone explain the whole sight picture thing? The beretta just has the regular sights with the 3 white dots. I basically just line those up. Not sure if I'm doing something wrong there.

Okay, let's get technical:

Sight picture is what you see just before the hammer drops. It is the relationship between the sights and the target.

Sight alignment is the relationship of the front and rear sight to each other.

The key is that tiny errors in sight alignment make for big errors at the target. On the other hand, good sight alignment and less-than-perfect sight picture merely means the gun will shoot where she looks.

The proper sight alignment for Patridge sights (Flat top front sight, square notch rear) is the "black wall" -- that is, top of front sight level with top of rear sight and a slice of light visible on either side of the front sight.

Dots and tritium sights make it easier to align the sights in dim light -- but don't change the relationship of the sights to each other. It is possible for dots, etc., to be a bit off, so a pistol properly sighted for good light may be off in dim light. It may be possible to adjust the sights so mis-aligned dots actually allow you to hit the target well -- but then in good light, you run the risk of using the "black wall" and missing.

 

[Navy joe]

It is a practice and muscle development thing. If you are shooting fast your muscles have to learn how to drive the gun back onto target without pushing you off. Your sights dictate what speed you go, the famous Brian Enos "See what you need to see." If your sights are not on target, do not pull the trigger. A lot of fast shooting and you will develop faster visual skills. The info is there now, your visual processor(brain) cannot keep up. The really fast shooters are seeing a lot more than you are. I was never really fast but got to the point where I could see my 9mm bullets on 7 yards shots indoors a couple of times. See the headstamp on the brass as it was ejecting. It is amazing what your eyes can see if your brain can process the info.

Drive the gun, watch that front sight. If it is acceptable, pull the trigger. Acceptable at 5yards may be a front sight anywhere in the target zone. At farther ranges you need to see more because greater precision is required.
Keep shooting smooth and on target, speed will come.

 

[Jason_G]

Even experienced shooters have a tendency to jerk the trigger in rapid fire drills. The basics of good accuracy are the same fast or slow: Don't pull the trigger until you have a good sight picture, don't move the gun when you pull the trigger and follow through.

I would do two things.

1. Load some snap caps at random in your magazines. If you are jerking the trigger, it will manifest when you the snap caps.

2. Dry fire with a 'fast' trigger pull while balancing and empty case on the top of your gun muzzle. (This only works if you have a flat space near the muzzle to place a case).

Dry firing with a snap cap is always good general practice, but he's shooting a 92FS, which means he's going to be getting a longer DA pull every time he squeezes the trigger on that snap cap, rather than the SA pull he'll get when he shoots live ammo... Not really a good simulation for the trigger he'll experience in rapid fire. It won't hurt, but it's a poor substitute for the real thing. JMHO.

What I would do: go buy a bunch of cheap 9mm ammo, and go to an outdoor range somewhere that has steel popper targets or multiple pie plate targets, etc. Something where you can shoot at multiple targets, build a comfortable rhythm, and get immediate feedback via sound/sight as to whether you are on or not (Watch the first few seconds of this clip to see what I'm talking about). Worry about accuracy first, and then develop your speed. After you get to the point where you can knock down steel at a fairly fast pace, then you will be able to refine your accuracy even more on the bullseyes if you want.

Jason

 

[PPGMD]

Controlling rapid fire starts with knowing your gun. Being able to stage the trigger, and knowing how to work the trigger reset (if you trigger has a shorter reset) will speed it up.

I highly recommend Andy Stanford's Surgical Speed Shooting. That and a ton of practice.

 

[CWL]

Yehen,

Can you get someone (with shooting knowledge) to watch you while you fire singles, doubles and rapidfire?

Sometimes, you may think you are using proper technique but may not be.
It could be your grip, your trigger work, your stance, anything combination, but until someone else sees what you are doing, it will be very hard for you to improve.

 

[sqlbullet]

Jason G

Perhaps I was not entirely clear.

I am advocating the use of snap caps randomly interspersed with live rounds at the range. This will reveal trigger jerk you don't normally notice when you yank the trigger, pull the gun off target and get no recoil. It is VERY effective at revealing flinch and bad trigger pull.

The 'fast' trigger pull in dry fire mode would be simulating the range, i.e. cocking the hammer for an SA pull, then placing the empty on the end of the gun, and squeezing the trigger. The reason for the 'fast' description is to ensure you are not slowly and carefully pulling the trigger just to ensure you don't knock the cartridge off. Once again, the purpose of the drill is to expose a trigger jerk or flinch you don't have in slow fire.

 

[Navy joe]

Snap caps in live fire are excellent for showing what you are doing. I'll usually see a little "post-ignition push" as I dip the gun slightly to compensate for the recoil that didn't happen on the snap cap. Sights stay on the target. With my glock I just load interspersed empty cases, sometimes they feed, sometimes they don't, one more thing to practice at high speed. Several of my range mags have broken followers, don't lock open, one more chance to practice everal skills upon experiencing *click* rather than *bang*

 

[PPGMD]

sqlbullet,

I find that only works for problems with slow firing, even the best fast shooters will have a bit of a dip as they start to apply downward pressure the moment they pull the trigger.

 

[possum]

Control Under Rapid Fire

what kinda grip are you using? are you using a thumbs foward/enos/letham method or what?

when i learned and perfected this style grip years ago i was instantly able to control handguns better no matter the caliber or size. some better than others of course. but you should not be having major issues with the 92. if you are not using this method at least give it a shot no un intended.

also make sure you are having good follow through get back on the sights after every shot no matter if it is your first or your last.

also learn to "milk" the trigger. with enough rds down range you will learn the gun and you will know exactly where the trigger is gonna "break" stag the trigger before if breaks, with no lay lef except for the breakig of the hammer settle on the sights and target and shoot. it might be slow at first but practice it and you will be shooting faster and with better control.

i also have a few speed drills that i like to do let me know if you want them. they are great for getting that hapy medium of speed and accuracy.

 

[possum]

also get to know what the reset is on your articualr pistol, and let the trigger go foward only enough to allow you to fire again, this will help you as you will have to pull the trigger a minimual amount as osed o comming all the way off the trigger.

milk trigger only needed on the first shot also get initial sight picture
line up sights(final sight picture)
sights on target
fire
follow front sight, back on target while reseting trigger as least as needed,
rinse repeat!

 

[Prose]

I can give you some advice that may help:

I am very proficient at rapid fire. I am capable of unloading a 9mm 16 round clip at a rate of speed and drilling the target at 25 feet that makes everyone at the range watch with genuine interest, not annoyance.

I have put many rounds through a beretta model 92. The slide on that thing feels like a giant weight that seesaws your hands and moves sickeningly slow. It's almost like a giant lead weight on a slide ramming back like a brick that you have to impatiently wait for before you can fire again. Almost as if you are just.... waiting for the gun to finish all it's BS before the next shot is fired.

I have a Springfield XD 9mm. When I pull the trigger I can barely tell the gun even did anything. It kicks and then its back on target. I get her lined up and put the firm grip to it and just pull the trigger as fast as humanly possible.

Smith and Wesson M&P's are nearly as fast. You need a gun that doesn't throw alot of weight around. That and you need to pretend you are holding onto a rope for your dear life. Grip that gun as if you mean to strangle it. Also look into your stance, perhaps it is as simple as how you position your body.

 

[Mad Magyar]

See the headstamp on the brass as it was ejecting. It is amazing what your eyes can see if your brain can process the info.

Now, that is amazing.... Excuse me while I wipe the coffee off the keyboard...

It kicks and then its back on target. I get her lined up and put the firm grip to it and just pull the trigger as fast as humanly possible.

When you don't have a "race-gun" on heavy steroids and using "soft-ball" ammo barely crawling out of the barrel...
Those "pros" know all the tricks...Not my role-models....
I've always stated that Bill's Drill is waste of ammo & not needed for any serious purpose...It looks good on PD TV, but no such thing in competition or on the streets....
You'd be best served by time & ammo practicing "controlled pairs"...

 

[PPGMD]

I've always stated that Bill's Drill is waste of ammo & not needed for any serious purpose...It looks good on PD TV, but no such thing in competition or on the streets....
You'd be best served by time & ammo practicing "controlled pairs"...

Thats because too many do Bill drill without a target so it is more of a gun drill (at least how well it melds with the shooter), some guns are just a pain to really start firing fast with.

But a Bill's Drill with an IPSC target, and requiring no shots outside the A zone is an accurate indicator of skill.

But for IPSC and IDPA (particularly IDPA since you have to reload behind cover) I find the El Presidente, and it's variations are the best indicators of skill because it covers target transitions which can make or break a run.

 

[Undert0e]

a great drill that will help improve rapid fire is the trigger reset drill. on the 92 fire your first round in DA hold the trigger to the rear, the pistol in now in single action, slowly release the trigger until you feel a small click. dont let the trigger out any further just pull and repeat.
your eight fundamentals will never change no matter how fast you can shoot.

stance
grip
sight alignment
sight picture
trigger control
breathing
follow through and
recovery

ensure all of the above are the same when you shoot and you will see drastic improvements. and keep in mind you only want to shoot as fast as you can EFFECTIVELY engage your target. the speed will come with practice.

 

[Jason_G]

Jason G

Perhaps I was not entirely clear.

I am advocating the use of snap caps randomly interspersed with live rounds at the range. This will reveal trigger jerk you don't normally notice when you yank the trigger, pull the gun off target and get no recoil. It is VERY effective at revealing flinch and bad trigger pull.

Oh, I thought you meant just simply dry firing repeatedly. Yes, mixing the snaps in with the ammo would help to catch any flinching.

Jason

 

[Jason_G]

It doubled up on me.

Jason

 

[nelson133]

What has worked for me is to start with a good foundation of stance and grip et al as stated above and start slow firing. Slowly increase your firing speed until your shots become too erratic and then practice your fundamentals at that speed until you improve. Then you can start increasing sped again. This takes a lot of time and ammo, but achieving and maintaining proficiency always does.

 

[JasonMD85]

I am, by no means, an expert shooter. With that said, I do have some USMC friends that come home and go shooting with me, and they are very proficient with their 92s. Don't be discouraged. Granted, not the ideal pistol for rapid fire, it certainly is very doable.

Just out of curiosity, do you use the Isometric Pressure technique when shooting multiples and rapid fire? That will help a good bit.

 

[-terry]

I've been a professional sax player for many years. It's interesting how the suggestions for improving speed with a gun are almost the exact same thing as increasing speed when playing fast passages on a sax, piano, or other finger-strike instrument.

As taught to me by Eugene Rosseau, a fast note is just a slow note, played quickly. You need the same intonation, tone quality, support, and crispness for a fast not as for a slow one. So you start out playing very accurate slow notes for sales, arpeggios, etc. As the body gets bored of this, it will try to speed up. Let it but listen carefully. As soon as you lose the quality of sound, reduce your speed by 50% and start over. This does two things. It provides a slight negative feedback when you try to play too fast and it gives you a chance to play at a speed where you are perfect with all the fundamentals.

I'm new at pistols, but I'm approaching it exactly the same way. Slow perfect practice makes for fast perfect performance.

(Also true for motorcycle racing.)

 

[Navy joe]

Quote:
See the headstamp on the brass as it was ejecting. It is amazing what your eyes can see if your brain can process the info.


Now, that is amazing.... Excuse me while I wipe the coffee off the keyboard...

Think what you want, visual processing speed is the biggest thing I've taken away from practical shooting. I mentioned it because new shooters think really fast shooters are just whacking the trigger. You have to tell them to see the sights every shot. Fast shooters just see it faster. FWIW I also race cars and I found that shooting really made that easier, everything seemed so slow to me because I was seeing it faster. OODA loop, the faster you can do any step, the faster you can be. Sorry not everybody sees the same as you. I wasn't much impressed by the brass, seeing my own bullets always suprises me though.

Back to rapid shooting, I try not to push stances but when I tell people "Shoulders forward of hips, hips forward of ankles, elbows slightly flexed they get better results. I use a little different grip, my support wrist is rolled forward and the support arm is locked out with the dominant arm slightly flexed. Most of your grip power should come from your support hand. Knuckles down the front strap, thumbs together and forward. Get your hands locked together like that and get someone to sharpie marker a line across your thumbs, see if you assume the same grip every time and if it shifts under recoil.