Steve Smith
Moderator Emeritus
I think the Redding bushing sizing die gives more control over brass stress.
cool article: RELOADING for the MATCH M14
- Thread starter Sven
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Sven
Senior Member
You dispute the master? 
Sven
Senior Member
Steve:
I can see how the Redding die has advantages with those bushings... here is a link to a review:
http://www.snipercountry.com/ReddingCompDie.htm
I might opt for that as it will give me the ability to tune how much I work the brass.
I can see how the Redding die has advantages with those bushings... here is a link to a review:
http://www.snipercountry.com/ReddingCompDie.htm
I might opt for that as it will give me the ability to tune how much I work the brass.
Steve Smith
Moderator Emeritus
Trying to get just the right bushing takes a little longer, but in the end it is worth it I think. I have about 6 loadings on my brass now and I'm going to see how far they'll go. I'll let you know.
There are a lot of "correct" paths, and you will eventualy find your own way. When I was in your shoes, I just paid attention to anyone with an MA or HM classification, as they didn't get there by accident. That was the advice given to me, and it is good advice. (Note: I do think that the advice from XC shooters has more weight to it) So, Glen says one thing, and he is a High Master. Others (Masters and High Masters) say another. I'm not sure if the difference between a MA and HM could ever be placed on ammo. MAs often shoot HM scores, and quite a few HMs struggle to shoot HM scores consistently. There is a grey line there but you have to keep in mind that they're all "masters" and what they tell you will be more than sufficient for your purposes.
There are a lot of "correct" paths, and you will eventualy find your own way. When I was in your shoes, I just paid attention to anyone with an MA or HM classification, as they didn't get there by accident. That was the advice given to me, and it is good advice. (Note: I do think that the advice from XC shooters has more weight to it) So, Glen says one thing, and he is a High Master. Others (Masters and High Masters) say another. I'm not sure if the difference between a MA and HM could ever be placed on ammo. MAs often shoot HM scores, and quite a few HMs struggle to shoot HM scores consistently. There is a grey line there but you have to keep in mind that they're all "masters" and what they tell you will be more than sufficient for your purposes.
Johnny Guest
Moderator In Memoriam
* * * APPLAUSE * * *
Extraordinary thread, guys.
(I just wish I could understand more of it . . . .)
Seriously, I feel you are all to be commended for your dedication to a very demanding aspect of the shooting sports.
I have floated a thread in recognition of you and your ilk at top of H&R forum, at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37837
Keep up the good work - - -
Johnny
Extraordinary thread, guys.
(I just wish I could understand more of it . . . .)
Seriously, I feel you are all to be commended for your dedication to a very demanding aspect of the shooting sports.
I have floated a thread in recognition of you and your ilk at top of H&R forum, at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37837
Keep up the good work - - -
Johnny
Steve Smith
Moderator Emeritus
bogie
Member
Hmmm...
Guys, don't get me started...
Suggestion about the bushing dies - if your necks aren't true, they won't give you much. Surface-turn your necks.
If you use bushing dies, you don't need the expander portion - just use the substitute dealie to knock out the primer.
I dunno if Glen has played with Lapua brass - their .308 stuff is very consistent. Also needs next to no case prep.
Wilson's trimmer is VERY accurate, and almost as fast to use with the screwdriver attachment as any other motorized unit.
Guys, don't get me started...
Suggestion about the bushing dies - if your necks aren't true, they won't give you much. Surface-turn your necks.
If you use bushing dies, you don't need the expander portion - just use the substitute dealie to knock out the primer.
I dunno if Glen has played with Lapua brass - their .308 stuff is very consistent. Also needs next to no case prep.
Wilson's trimmer is VERY accurate, and almost as fast to use with the screwdriver attachment as any other motorized unit.
Steve Smith
Moderator Emeritus
Bogie, you and I have gone over this before. A Service Rifle neck isn't tight enough for a thick spot to have any bearing on alignment anyway. The thing is, is that #1 the bushing limits how much the neck is sized every time, resulting in longer brass life, and #2 it, when coupled WITH the expander ball, ensures a specific neck tension and that the thick spots are on the outside, not the inside, of the neck. Remember, HP is a different game than BR. We play by different rules.
Bet that Wilson ain't a fifth as fast as a Giraud!
Bet that Wilson ain't a fifth as fast as a Giraud!
Sven
Senior Member
Nobody I've read so far will stand up for Lapua brass in the M1A... the M1A is REALLY hard on brass. 6 firings is starting to push the limit, from what folks say. Word on the street is that while Lapua is of exceptional quality, but perhaps not as thickly walled and/or work-hardened as LC/IMI brass. Would love to hear first-person information on this.
Loading for semi-auto gas guns is a totally different animal than loading for a bolt-action. This thread is dedicated to learning more SPECIFICALLY about loading for the M14.
Loading for semi-auto gas guns is a totally different animal than loading for a bolt-action. This thread is dedicated to learning more SPECIFICALLY about loading for the M14.
Not meaning to be contentious, but the consensus of what I've read over the last couple of years (which is as long as I've been in the M1A game; I'm a newbie at this, too) is that it is generally regarded that 3-4 firings is the point at which the 'prudent man' starts to doubt his brass, Lapua or otherwise. Obviously, the number of reloads per lot depends on the crimp, powder charge, and original wall/neck/web thickness (from one OEM to the next), chamber dimensions vs. case dimensions, etc. A couple shooters I know experimented, pitting LC vs. Lapua, and found that Lapua didn't last any longer than LC.
That said, I'm on my 7th recycle of LC, but I resize with an X-die. I used to have to chuck the cases after the 2nd to 4th firing with regular dies. To be sure, the best way to 'sense' incipient head separation is to use a probe and physically feel the internal wall of the case. I do this with every round I fire, since it takes less than 3 seconds per case, and my barrel can use the cool-down time between shots anyway. Of course, rapid-fire ammo is separated and checked later.
Sven, that's not entirely true.
All I use for my M14NM (cousin to the M1A) and 700PSS is Lapua brass. I use the Lapua that's headstamped "7.62x51", and it won many a 200 meter NRA High Power match for me, stuffed with 155gr Sierra Palmas and IMR4895. (Krieger barrel likes the Palmas better than the 168gr MatchKings) The consistency in brass thickness, and consistency when I weight sorted a batch from the 1000+ pieces I "inherited" impressed me enough to forego using any other brand of 7.62x51/.308 Win brass. Yup, even the Lake City National Match stuff. I'll scan in the headstamp for you, I don't even know if the Lapua 7.62x51 headstamped stuff's commercially available.
I switched to the RCBS X-Die a while back, but still use a Lee Factory Crimp die before the finished product gets put in the ammo cans for match day.
The M14/M1A is hard on brass, but if it gets too dented, I fireform it in the Remington 700PSS for one cycle. Works like a charm, and I use the same exact load settings for the 700PSS as I do the M14NM, right down to bullet seating depth (Both have box magazine limits close to each other).
I agree with Steve, I skip using my flaky Dillon Determinator electronic scale, and use an ancient-looking Ohaus 10-10 scale for all my match loads, including my 1000-yard 6.5-06 fodder.
All I use for my M14NM (cousin to the M1A) and 700PSS is Lapua brass. I use the Lapua that's headstamped "7.62x51", and it won many a 200 meter NRA High Power match for me, stuffed with 155gr Sierra Palmas and IMR4895. (Krieger barrel likes the Palmas better than the 168gr MatchKings) The consistency in brass thickness, and consistency when I weight sorted a batch from the 1000+ pieces I "inherited" impressed me enough to forego using any other brand of 7.62x51/.308 Win brass. Yup, even the Lake City National Match stuff. I'll scan in the headstamp for you, I don't even know if the Lapua 7.62x51 headstamped stuff's commercially available.
I switched to the RCBS X-Die a while back, but still use a Lee Factory Crimp die before the finished product gets put in the ammo cans for match day.
The M14/M1A is hard on brass, but if it gets too dented, I fireform it in the Remington 700PSS for one cycle. Works like a charm, and I use the same exact load settings for the 700PSS as I do the M14NM, right down to bullet seating depth (Both have box magazine limits close to each other).
I agree with Steve, I skip using my flaky Dillon Determinator electronic scale, and use an ancient-looking Ohaus 10-10 scale for all my match loads, including my 1000-yard 6.5-06 fodder.
Definitely less prep time.
But I retire the Lapua brass off to my BM-59, and probably for the last loading to a future fluted-chamber CETME, when it starts to look ratty around the rim and extractor groove. The primer pockets are still tight, and brass stretch/growth/case trimming has really slowed down since I went with the RCBS X-Dies. Maybe ironing it out by fireforming it every now and then in the 700PSS helps. It shouldn't, because no two chambers are cut the same, and that's supposed to stress the brass when full-length sized between two guns. I do the same case head stretch ring test using a sharpened and bent paper clip, and have gone at least 8 reloadings so far without any trouble. I attribute it to the Lapua's brass thickness. What I don't know, however, is the difference between the Lapua "7.62x51" brass I use, and the Lapua brass that's headstamped ".308 Win".
On a whim, I just finished making up a batch using CAVIM milsurp brass, we'll see how it holds up. You can definitely tell it's made to a different standard than the Lapua.
But I retire the Lapua brass off to my BM-59, and probably for the last loading to a future fluted-chamber CETME, when it starts to look ratty around the rim and extractor groove. The primer pockets are still tight, and brass stretch/growth/case trimming has really slowed down since I went with the RCBS X-Dies. Maybe ironing it out by fireforming it every now and then in the 700PSS helps. It shouldn't, because no two chambers are cut the same, and that's supposed to stress the brass when full-length sized between two guns. I do the same case head stretch ring test using a sharpened and bent paper clip, and have gone at least 8 reloadings so far without any trouble. I attribute it to the Lapua's brass thickness. What I don't know, however, is the difference between the Lapua "7.62x51" brass I use, and the Lapua brass that's headstamped ".308 Win".
On a whim, I just finished making up a batch using CAVIM milsurp brass, we'll see how it holds up. You can definitely tell it's made to a different standard than the Lapua.
Steve Smith
Moderator Emeritus
FWIW, I use the Dillon powder measure and I've modified my 550 toolhead to accept a 650 powder check die. I use the 550 for all of my ammo. After firing many a 198 at 600, and am absolutely confident that my ammo is capable of consistently cleaning the target. I wish I could.
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