Course Review: Center Axis Relock

[ReefBlue]

I've consistently read two opinions on center axis relock training, so I expect this thread to end up being at least a minor bloodbath.

One opinion is written by people who have never taken the class, and they are overwhelmingly negative, based on what experience, I'll never know since they haven't taken the class.

The second is written by people who have taken the class are are unanimously positive. They're the people to listen to since they actually know what the class is about.

I took the class about a few weeks ago. I was waiting a long time for an opportunity and it finally came.

From grip, to stance, to the eye and hand you use to shoot, everything is taught from the beginning.

Right away, the problem I had with my stance was solved. I have very long arms, so a typical stance had me holding my pistol way out in front of my face and my arms weren't able to hold the position for very long. My arms would drift, so I'd end up snapping the trigger to get a shot off as it passes by the target. The high and extended stances we practiced solved that problem instantly.

I don't claim to be a crack shot, but my groups tightened up pretty quickly as well. Speed of reloading went up because of the limited movement required by this method.

The drills we did may seem silly when taken out of context. If you watched the whole 30 minute session instead of some 4 second video on a website, you'd understand how much you're not seeing.

The weapons retention aspect was wonderful. I got paired up with someone much shorter than me and definatley older. I thought I'd have to let the guy win when trying to get his gun away from him. There was no way I could get his gun away from him.

I've seen this referred to as 'reality based training', and I understand the term. Ask youself when the last time someone was attacked by someone standing up straight, facing them at ranges of 15 yards while you have your pistol and a couple magazines on a small platform at your waist. Not to mention, there is no stress when shooting a paper target.

If you can put 10 rounds into a 3 inch group at 15 yards, great. Someone who is planning on mugging you is going to be 2 feet away from you with at least a kinfe. Can you break off and re-engage? Can you stun someone with a pistol without firing a shot?

I will also clear up a myth or two:

You will not get hit in the face with your slide as you fire. I don't know how this one started, but it is ridiculous. Lock your slide back, it only goes an inch or two back. You simply don't hold the gun that close to you, period. When I hold my gun in the proper position, with the slide locked to the rear, I can still make a fist and put it between my face and the back of the slide.

Holding the gun to your chest (the high position), some say they worry about shooting into your arm. Again, not possible unless you take your arm and force it into an amazingly unnatural position that would never occur.

But hey, what do I know. I only took the class.

I know my post is somewhat vague and it jumped around, I suppose I could create such a detailed post that would take so long to read that it woud be useless. It also wouldn't make much sense if you simply read it.

I can't wait to see how this thread turns out.

 

[Owen]

what other training have you had?

 

[Chris Rhines]

Where was this class, and who was the instructor?
Using the CAR position, what was your average time for two shots, from the holster, into say 8", at five yards?

- Chris

 

[ReefBlue]

My other training was strictly military--6 years active Navy and two in the PA National Guard.

The training was held by www.argivedefense.com my two instructors were Bob Desrosiers and George Matheis www.mercop.com. The training was just south of Allentown, PA.

I'm not the fastest shot, in fact this training came after a long gap. I can't remember how fast I was shooting exactly, but I seem to remember mid to high 2 seconds.

A good time was had by all. There were 16 of us and two instructors.

 

[mercop]

http://www.mercop.com/docs/articles23.htm

 

[Chris Rhines]

I can't remember how fast I was shooting exactly, but I seem to remember mid to high 2 seconds.

For two shots from the holster at 5 yards? No offense, as I don't really know anything about your background, but that's not much of a recommendation.

- Chris

 

[mercop]

He was too busy switching hands and moving to hear the timer.

 

[brownie0486]

Lots of good CAR information and instructors here:

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=28

Brownie

 

[Eyesac]

For two shots from the holster at 5 yards? No offense, as I don't really know anything about your background, but that's not much of a recommendation

???? I think his time is not really an indication of the training. Might be more of an indication of personal limitations, motivation or drive. You could run my mother through the absolute best of training courses and I would be thrilled if she did that good...

I don't know anything about CAR other than what I've seen online, and it looks interesting. Retention possiblilties look good, might take some getting used to w/ the canted grip... Who knows? Probably the OP.

 

[mpmarty]

I dunno, was he using a WWII GI holster with a flap?
I run 0.57 seconds from beep to first shot from holster and wrists above shoulders, second shot comes at 0.77 or thereabouts, at seven yards with all hits in the torso "A" zone and I'm sixty-nine years old. Gear and training make a huge difference and I will be the first to admit I don't CCW with my race holster and tricked out 1911. If he was drawing from an IWB tucked holster his time is not quite so bad and if he was carrying in condition 3 his time is really quite good. All this is relative and we are in no position to pass judgment on how "fast" he was.

 

[ReefBlue]

I can't believe there is no quote button here . . .

I'm just not a fast person. During the portion of training where we were doing kicks and elbows, I said--If I connect, I'll kill you with one shot, but you have a half hour to get out of the way.

I was also wearing clothing that I wear on the street, a bulky sweater that I had to navigate. Part of the training was to wear what you normally wear on the street. You can train all day long with specialized gear and stuff you only use at a range, which will work great . . . so long as you get attacked by someone at the range while you have all this fancy gear and are awaiting an attack.

The instructors are straight up with you too, George looked me right in the eye and told me my brand new 60 dollar holster was garbage and to get something else, but for the training it was what I had. I have since bought a new holster.

We had a couple people doing mid 1 second in regular street clothing and typically found holsters, most of which they were told to replace for something a little better . . .one guy had a failure of a trigger spring and had to use a second pistol that someone else happened to have brought with them. His performance with the different gun increased dramatically, so what mpmarty says in closing is extremely accurate.

 

[golfer]

Two seconds from lifting my sweatshirt and clearing my IWB holster to the second shot might not be a bad time from my point of view.

 

[Chris Rhines]

It all depends on your frame of reference, doesn't it?

Here's the deal. I'm really trying to keep an open mind about CAR. But, if I'm going to entertain training in a new and different shooting system, I need to be convinced that the new system is going to help me shoot better.

I can easily fire two rounds into a five-yard target in under 1.5 seconds, from a concealed belt holster, using my usual sloppy Iso stance. So with that in mind, what exactly does CAR bring to the table?

- Chris

 

[RyanM]

I can't believe there is no quote button here

The quote function works. The quote button was removed because people were ridiculously abusing it, quoting pages long posts in order to add a single line reply.

 

[ReefBlue]

I can easily fire two rounds into a five-yard target in under 1.5 seconds, from a concealed belt holster, using my usual sloppy Iso stance. So with that in mind, what exactly does CAR bring to the table?

If you're fast, you keep your speed. You might even get quicker.

You'll stop using your sloppy stance and end up with a much more stable platform, much better weapon retention methods. You'll also get accustomed to shooting with either hand, something you'll need to be able to do when you shoot from a vehicle.

If you have good skills, this will smooth out all the rough edges and simply be an overall improvment. We were even told during training, not everything is going to work for you during training and you can discard those parts.

For example--I have a history of eye problems and have right eye dominance to the point where I almost don't use my left eye. So I have discarded the right hand/left eye shooting, but as I practice, I try to do it anyhow, I don't know if I'll ever get good at using my left eye. I can shoot left hand/right eye, but then I can't do quick reloads without basically learning basic motion all over again.

So yeah, while I know how and what to do, I can't get my body to do it, so I don't follow that aspect of it. The rest of it has helped me, so I keep practicing with what I learned in CAR class.

 

[PressCheck]

I average .8 sec to get off the first shot from the holster @ 5 yds. I'm not a "gamer"; just a guy with a Glock that practices a lot.

 

[mercop]

CAR is more about getting accurate rounds off after being punched in the head. Timer shooting has little to do with reality.

 

[balance]

I attended the CAR course back in 2005. I went through the training with the man behind the system, Paul Castle. Great guy, who took his time to develop a system that will work for some, and not for others. Does it work? Fortunately, I have not had to test it. It is a system that takes into consideration the way the different parts of the human body respond in a stressful situation. It can be utilized from contact distance to 15-20 yards, and further with longer ranged weapons. Reef, did they show you the pistol punch. It might be hard to apply it in a real life scenario, but it is an alternative that creates a gap between you and an attacker allowing you to place close range shots. In summary, give it a try. If it works for you, stick with it and become proficient. If not, well you can always go back to a stance.

 

[brownie0486]

I'm really trying to keep an open mind about CAR. But, if I'm going to entertain training in a new and different shooting system, I need to be convinced that the new system is going to help me shoot better.

The only way you'll know for sure is to attend a CAR course yourself. I found two CAR skills within the system I'll use without hesitation as those skills are better than what I had and work.

Could have been no skills I'd use or more skills, but it was worth being given these two skills alone.

Brownie

 

[redneckrepairs]

I am glad it suits you , it does not me , and as to my training i let it lapse but i used to be a nra certed police firearm's trainer, nowdays i am a farmer , but i just cannot put all my years behind me . If it suits you however tho and YOU are comfortable with your skills i say good on you . For what little my experiance and endorsement are worth i say carry , if CAR gives you a teddy bear by all means use it . just dont forget ( as a favor to me ) to practice them sights . As a matter of fact shoot em out to 25 yards. after all aim ( or point )small miss mall huh lol .

 

[mercop]

redneckrepairs, where did you take the couse?

We have had several officers use the pistol punch during entries and bad guys began to reach for the the officers gun as a reaction to being gun faced. Their intent was not to take the officers gun but naturaly responded to having an object shoved in their face. Even done at 25% speed it is crushing.

 

[PressCheck]

CAR is more about getting accurate rounds off after being punched in the head. Timer shooting has little to do with reality.

OH?

 

[ReefBlue]

CAR is more about getting accurate rounds off after being punched in the head. Timer shooting has little to do with reality.

I can't remember what you said, but it was along these lines:

____ is to gunfighting as point fighting is to street fighting.

I don't remember what the blank is though.

When was the last time someone got attacked while standing on a firing line, waiting for a beep, by a target that isn't going to shoot back and remains still at 15 yards or holding a plate in their hand?

 

[7677]

Redneck,
I'm not the expert on CAR even thought I've had quite a bit of exposure to it. However, I seem to remember being taught to shoot CAR with and without my sights or maybe that was my understanding of it.

I did not adopted CAR because it did not offer any advantage to what I was already doing and it went against the training that I have already mastered even though back in the 80s I was taught similar method to CAR for shooting while wearing a gas mask. However, I did incorporate some of the techniques from CAR to my tool box that allow me to transition my weapon rapidly to my flanks.

Although it was not for me, I can say from my exposure to it the myths are not true and I would recommend taking a class because anything that takes you outside of your comfort zone makes you think causes you re-evaluate your current technique and I'm sure like Brownie and I you will find something in the system that fits inside of your toolbox. Or, you might like the whole package.

I also agree with Mercop, I like the muzzle strike especially but depending on the gun it may split your attacker wide open.

 

[mercop]

I have a toolbox but the CAR is a tool on my Leatherman. Just a handful of tools from training and experience I know will solve most problems I will encounter.