Well I don't have that problem because i'm left handed and my booger hook is on the other side of the laser.
but, I still don't have a set of CT lasergrips...
but, I still don't have a set of CT lasergrips...
Crimson Trace and Rule #3
- Thread starter Zundfolge
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IMTHDUKE
Member
IMTHDUKE
Member
What I like about these boards...a wealth of wrong generalizations
These are cut off switches....
Yet another cut off switch on a revolver...
These are cut off switches....
Yet another cut off switch on a revolver...
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TimboKhan
Member
Unlike iron sights, I can't keep my finger off the trigger and still use the device. Just because you need the laser doesn't mean you are going to shoot.
I think some of you are missing the point. It isn't that he needs help with the laser or doesn't know how to use it, it's that you can't use the device without breaking a basic safety rule.
What if, for example, Zundfolge was holding someone on the ground waiting for the cops in a low-light situation. He wouldn't necessarily want his finger on the trigger, but he very well might want that little red dot centered on the chest or something. Sure, he could put his finger on the trigger guard, but that sucks, and there is a reason that isn't the most commonly taught "safe finger" position. Look, call me a luddite or whatever, but if I am spending 300 bucks on a device that is supposed to help me, I don't want to have to change my whole manual of arms.
jfh
Member.
"...Sure, he could put his finger on the trigger guard, but that sucks, and there is a reason that isn't the most commonly taught "safe finger" position. Look, call me a luddite or whatever, but if I am spending 300 bucks on a device that is supposed to help me, I don't want to have to change my whole manual of arms."
I gotta disagree, TimboKhan. I don't characterize this as having to "...change my whole manual of arms." It's a change, yes--but one that can be adapted to with enough practice. That is, enough repetitions so that the muscle memory is well implanted and feels natural.
Jim H.
I own about 7 Lasergrips, I can double the shooting abilities of a novice or a remedial shooter in a few hours or less with a LG before they ever fire a shot.
The Bushmaster
Member
That's great kenno. As long as you teach and have them practice with the on board sights before they use the laser.
The laser is great for teaching trigger control.
The laser is great for teaching trigger control.
When I teach a new shooter I introduce them to the laser fairly early depending on how well they are doing with iron sights.
This is a good example of how well new shooters can do with the laser after they have a firm understanding of sight picture and trigger control.
Last year I was teaching three senior ladies to shoot. In just a couple days they were already doing well with the 2 inch S&W J Frame 38.
I told the ladies, "You are doing so well let's just have some fun", and I introduced them to my Streamlight TLR-2 equipped Ruger 22/45.
I put up a hostage target, the one where the BG is behind the girl and is pointing a pistol at you.
I gave each lady a 10 round magazine and said, Empty all ten rounds into the BG's head.
Each one did this with no trouble.
As it was getting late there was only time for one person to shoot.
I picked one lady and said, "OK, now that was easy. This time you must shoot the gun out of the BG's hand, using all ten rounds (10 yards).
This is her target.
I told her that missed shot was not acceptable.
This is not a recommended placement for the trigger finger because it is lined up with the trigger. An involuntary motion caused by stumbling or a sudden start can cause the finger to curl, sliding off the trigger guard and onto the trigger.
For the same reason it is inadvisable to leave the finger floating around outside of the triggerguard. When that is done the finger almost always ends up in a position where an involuntary contraction will put it on the trigger.
That is why it is recommended that the finger be off the trigger, above it and against the frame of the gun so that if it contracts involuntarily that involuntary movement won't move it onto the trigger, firing the gun.
As I see it, one can attempt to argue from the perspective that blocking the laser with the trigger finger is a good thing, but I don't believe it is possible to make a good case for alternative finger placement. There's a very good reason that experts advise placing the finger above the triggerguard against the frame--it's done that way for safety. Buying a laser/wanting a laser/liking a laser doesn't eliminate that reason or provide a good enough reason for changing the trigger finger placement to a position that is less safe.
My 4" 629, 5" Colt 1911, and 3" S@W Model 66 all sport CT laser grips and I have NO problems blocking the laser beam with my medium sized hands.
The Bushmaster
Member
JohnKSa...That would include having the trigger finger above the trigger alongside the frame. If you hand a new comer or a very young kid a hand gun you will find that they, instinctively, place their finger on the trigger. If you have the same "stumble" or "start" the results will be the same.
jfh
Member.
OK, I'll take the points about finger placement--
but it seems to me that you are arguing for a use in which the parameters are fairly complex, and really beyond the appropriate civilian use. I agree that having one's finger on the trigger on a SA auto makes it an issue; here, I'm defining that issue as one of an AD/ND (and let's not, at least for the moment, segue off into that semantics discussion) caused by adrenalin / motor skill issues--the proverbial unintended discharge.
IMO, the civilian use is based on having identified an immediate deadly threat, drawing, and at least preparing to shoot by having one's finger on the trigger. One simply doesn't present the firearm unless the threat is deadly. To do so brings up the "brandishing" and "escalation" discussions--which are, I think, antigunner feints in politics, but equally-significant factors in the legal issues for carry-ers. Perhaps, then, this discussion is not merely about the apparent conflict between sacrosanct gun safety rules and the use of a certain-brand laser, but also about the legal constraints of civilian use and carry.
So, then perhaps those of us who carry should select only DAO handguns? 1911 guys should carry only the ParaOrd long trigger type? Personally, I resolved this 'intention' / safety issue by selecting DAO handguns. My first carry gun some eighteen years ago was an SP101 with a bobbed hammer; the second was a Glock 19 (with a laser), and the bedside / holster-type was a S&W 4046 (or something like that). A third semiauto was a CZ-75 type, an EAA Witness 'Carry Comp'--which allowed a DA trigger stroke for the first shot. At that same time, I was fairly proficient with 1911s for shooting in club-level 'action-type' competition. But, I didn't want to routinely carry a 1911.
The solution is probably new / different devices--e.g., different laser placement. The new S&W revolver, its response to a Ruger LCR, has this in a laser mount up at the top-rear of the frame....
Jim H.
but it seems to me that you are arguing for a use in which the parameters are fairly complex, and really beyond the appropriate civilian use. I agree that having one's finger on the trigger on a SA auto makes it an issue; here, I'm defining that issue as one of an AD/ND (and let's not, at least for the moment, segue off into that semantics discussion) caused by adrenalin / motor skill issues--the proverbial unintended discharge.
IMO, the civilian use is based on having identified an immediate deadly threat, drawing, and at least preparing to shoot by having one's finger on the trigger. One simply doesn't present the firearm unless the threat is deadly. To do so brings up the "brandishing" and "escalation" discussions--which are, I think, antigunner feints in politics, but equally-significant factors in the legal issues for carry-ers. Perhaps, then, this discussion is not merely about the apparent conflict between sacrosanct gun safety rules and the use of a certain-brand laser, but also about the legal constraints of civilian use and carry.
So, then perhaps those of us who carry should select only DAO handguns? 1911 guys should carry only the ParaOrd long trigger type? Personally, I resolved this 'intention' / safety issue by selecting DAO handguns. My first carry gun some eighteen years ago was an SP101 with a bobbed hammer; the second was a Glock 19 (with a laser), and the bedside / holster-type was a S&W 4046 (or something like that). A third semiauto was a CZ-75 type, an EAA Witness 'Carry Comp'--which allowed a DA trigger stroke for the first shot. At that same time, I was fairly proficient with 1911s for shooting in club-level 'action-type' competition. But, I didn't want to routinely carry a 1911.
The solution is probably new / different devices--e.g., different laser placement. The new S&W revolver, its response to a Ruger LCR, has this in a laser mount up at the top-rear of the frame....
Jim H.
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Last week I visited a "tactical supply" store to research lights and holster options, and they had a display set up with sample lasers and it was a lot of fun to operate them. These are obviously extremely useful with little downside. So I'm thinking about this thread, and the "finger off trigger" rule and I've come to the same conclusion as jfh has above: If you're bringing the weapon out, and you're ready to fire and you're sure of your target and backstop, then you're probably going to have your finger on the trigger.
earlthegoat2
Member
What we have here once again is a product of personal preference.
I am with the OP on this one. Every handgun I have tried with LaserGrips has been the same issue. If my finger is off the trigger then the laser is blocked. Adjusting my grip to turn off the laser while I am not on target is NOT an option and is what I believe to be a fundamental design flaw in the device.
It does not keep them from selling though.
I am with the OP on this one. Every handgun I have tried with LaserGrips has been the same issue. If my finger is off the trigger then the laser is blocked. Adjusting my grip to turn off the laser while I am not on target is NOT an option and is what I believe to be a fundamental design flaw in the device.
It does not keep them from selling though.
jfh
Member.
earthegoat2: Have you tried a CT grip on a revolver? At least on my j-frames, I don't have to adjust the grip. And, at least with my hand / finger characteristics, the laser is visible unless I am within 1/16 -1/8" of touching the cylinder with my trigger finger.
I gotta check how my hand works on a 1911, I admit. That is, I know how I place my finger outside the trigger guard, and it is on the frame. I assume that would block a 1911 CT lasergrip, but I don't really know.
but, to the point at hand: do each of us, with our preferred carry guns, have subtle differences in how we address the safety rules for carry? Remember that a few years ago, the NRA started using slightly-different language in "the rules" to make them more compatible with firearms carry.
Jim H.
I gotta check how my hand works on a 1911, I admit. That is, I know how I place my finger outside the trigger guard, and it is on the frame. I assume that would block a 1911 CT lasergrip, but I don't really know.
but, to the point at hand: do each of us, with our preferred carry guns, have subtle differences in how we address the safety rules for carry? Remember that a few years ago, the NRA started using slightly-different language in "the rules" to make them more compatible with firearms carry.
Jim H.
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Same here.
I have the CT on two Kimber Ultras, two S&W J Frames, a Beretta 21A and a S&W K38. Accidentally blocking the laser just doesn't happen.
In any case it's a non problem because in most cases the laser shouldn't be turned on until you are going to shoot, meaning your finger is on the trigger when or before you light the laser.
The laser can be used for intimidation to give the BG a last chance to quit before being shot, but IMO if I tried this my finger would probably be in side the trigger guard when I light the laser.
I guess because the laser is a light and because of the Hollywood influence people can't stop trying to use the laser like a flashlight. They shine it around long before it should be turned on.
In most cases the laser shouldn't be lit until AFTER the target is identified. If it's dark enough, this has to be done with a flashlight or gun mounted light.
My rule of thumb is, when my finger is moved to the trigger the laser is turned on.
The laser switch is built into the grip and, with practice, can easily be controlled.
jfh
Member.
CT grip / 1911 design. I've looked again at Zundfolge's picture of the Kimber--and it does appear that CT could redesign that laser mount to be higher. Except, of course, that would not work with ambi thumb safeties. Personally, I don't run my 1911s with ambi safeties--but I know some do, and there is a good argument to be made for them.
Jim H.
Jim H.
Even inexperienced shooters quickly learn to turn the laser off and on at will.
One thing that is interesting is sometimes experienced shooters seem to have more difficulty learning to use the laser than new shooters.
A couple months ago friends were shooting at my place. I taught my friend's kids to shoot. This day the 16 year old daughter, who is a very good shot, was having trouble hitting all five small (3.5 inch) steel targets (iron sights, 38 J Frame). She was tearing up the paper targets but would miss a plate every time she shot the steel.
When we were packing up I told her, "We aren't leaving until you run those targets. Use the laser." I handed her my 2 inch S&W Model 60.
She immediately ran all five targets (14 yards).
My friend said, "That demonstrates why we need lasers".
The funny thing is my friend is an experienced shooter and is having trouble adapting to the laser.
jfh
Member.
I have drawn in response to a threat--
and the incident did not include aiming--laser or fixed sights. Without undue elaboration, it was an attempted carjacking, with the threat about three feet away, outside my (driver's) side window. When I am driving, I carry in a coat / vest inside pocket. I immediately drew, pointing the firearm at the person's body outside the window--and the threat left, now. I know my finger was on the trigger, and tightening; I don't know if i lit the laser (I probably did)--but with the threat leaving, I relaxed my pull.
There's more to the story, of course, but not relevant here, I think. I bring it up only to reinforce my contention that 1) the draw was after the threat was perceived as deadly, and 2) the likely shot(s) precluded any sort of aimed fire. It was a point-shooting situation, pure and simple.
The more I think about this, I suspect all of us have additional and subconscious factors we weigh in our firearms 'usage.' If we're diligent shooters, we have those sorted out in some sort of hierarchy, ranging from the issue of sacrosanct safety rules on through to (civilian) deadly threat and response. How we prioritize all these factors probably has something to do with how much and what kind of shooting activties we do.
I come from a marksmanship background, and I've trained religiously to move that skill set 'over' to allow incorporation of a skill set for carry / self defense. AFAICT, the marksmanship approach is what will get one killed in a self-defense situation.
Jim H.
and the incident did not include aiming--laser or fixed sights. Without undue elaboration, it was an attempted carjacking, with the threat about three feet away, outside my (driver's) side window. When I am driving, I carry in a coat / vest inside pocket. I immediately drew, pointing the firearm at the person's body outside the window--and the threat left, now. I know my finger was on the trigger, and tightening; I don't know if i lit the laser (I probably did)--but with the threat leaving, I relaxed my pull.
There's more to the story, of course, but not relevant here, I think. I bring it up only to reinforce my contention that 1) the draw was after the threat was perceived as deadly, and 2) the likely shot(s) precluded any sort of aimed fire. It was a point-shooting situation, pure and simple.
The more I think about this, I suspect all of us have additional and subconscious factors we weigh in our firearms 'usage.' If we're diligent shooters, we have those sorted out in some sort of hierarchy, ranging from the issue of sacrosanct safety rules on through to (civilian) deadly threat and response. How we prioritize all these factors probably has something to do with how much and what kind of shooting activties we do.
I come from a marksmanship background, and I've trained religiously to move that skill set 'over' to allow incorporation of a skill set for carry / self defense. AFAICT, the marksmanship approach is what will get one killed in a self-defense situation.
Jim H.
The Bushmaster
Member
You realize that this subject is rather mote...When I have my finger off the trigger my laser isn't even on. I have to intentually push the activating button or I have no beam. When I am ready to fire my finger goes to the trigger and I tend to grip a bit firmer and the light comes on.
Not sure where the problem lies. Maybe to OP just has a "understanding of the operation of a laser" problem...
Not sure where the problem lies. Maybe to OP just has a "understanding of the operation of a laser" problem...
So move your finger down about a half inch so the tip is resting on the front of the trigger guard. There is no need to create an unnecessary issue.
OP
OP
What I do understand is that for the last couple of decades (at least), the predominant training regimens all work roughly as followed:
1) Draw weapon (finger OFF trigger)
2) Identify target (finger OFF trigger)
3) Align sights on target (finger OFF trigger)
4) NOW move finger to target to prepare to fire.
5) FIRE!
6) Assess
7) Repeat 3-5 as necessary
The whole "align sights on target" thing shows up BEFORE the finger is moved to the trigger, so my only point is that the problem with the CT Laser grips is that you pretty much have to throw out the established training, or at the very least following the established training means there's a good chance your laser sights will be blocked by your finger (sure, you can place your finger perfectly and it won't obstruct the laser, but under stress?).
I guess my overall point is that after handling a pistol with CT grips I'm significantly less impressed with the system than I was before.
Under stress we tend to sink to the level of our training, "not rise to the occasion".
1) Draw weapon (finger OFF trigger)
2) Identify target (finger OFF trigger)
3) Align sights on target (finger OFF trigger)
4) NOW move finger to target to prepare to fire.
5) FIRE!
6) Assess
7) Repeat 3-5 as necessary
The whole "align sights on target" thing shows up BEFORE the finger is moved to the trigger, so my only point is that the problem with the CT Laser grips is that you pretty much have to throw out the established training, or at the very least following the established training means there's a good chance your laser sights will be blocked by your finger (sure, you can place your finger perfectly and it won't obstruct the laser, but under stress?).
I guess my overall point is that after handling a pistol with CT grips I'm significantly less impressed with the system than I was before.
Under stress we tend to sink to the level of our training, "not rise to the occasion".
jfh
Member.
Well, I hope that this discussion doesn't just come down to you and me, Zundfolge.
The paradigm for shooting you outlined above is certainly the one I learned sixty years ago, and it is the one refined when I took part in .22 marksmanship shooting in my teens. It does not, IMO, cover all the needs for self-defense shooting.
Where does point-shooting training fit in?
Jim H.
The paradigm for shooting you outlined above is certainly the one I learned sixty years ago, and it is the one refined when I took part in .22 marksmanship shooting in my teens. It does not, IMO, cover all the needs for self-defense shooting.
Where does point-shooting training fit in?
Jim H.
TimboKhan
Member
I also think you some of you cats think there is an anti-laser sentiment at work here. Speaking for me, there isn't. I see this particular problem on this particular gun with this particular product as an issue. I have no issue whatsoever with lasers in general.
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