Danger of shorter OAL?

[AgaveHound]

Hey gang, getting ready to do my first reloads.

I have an XD45 and will be using 8.5gr of AA-No.5 Velocity should be at about 800 with an OAL of 1.270 for 230gr RN bullets. This is mid-range for the bullets/powder I'm using.

I've read that XD's are a bit temperamental when it comes to OAL with some people running into problems at around the 1.260" range and some at even lower lengths. I want to run my OAL at about 1.255 - 1.260". Will this have an adverse affect on my pressures? Or am I correct in thinking that since I'm nowhere near max load that I should be fine?

 

[ants]

What made you choose 8.5g? It's very near max load.

Hello, friend. Your first reloads. Have you read through any books or manuals on the practices of reloading.


General Rule: Start at the starting load and work up in 0.2g increments, but never exceed max load.

You're looking for the most accurate and controllable load that meets your requirements.


Accurate has load data available on line. The March 2010 manual shows starting load of 7.8 grains and max load of 8.7 grains, at minimum OAL 1.230". So 1.255" to 1.260" will be OK, but start at or near starting load and work up from there.

 

[buck460XVR]

Or am I correct in thinking that since I'm nowhere near max load that I should be fine?

IMHO, you should be fine. Altho the shorter OAL will increase pressure as compared to tested OAL, it should still be within safe limits.

 

[AgaveHound]

Oh for heaven's sake.

I relied solely on the manual and neglected to check the powder website. Thanks for the clout to the ear.

I'm using a Lee auto disk for powder and I am limited on my choices unless I want to hand load each cartridge...and I don't think that's gonna happen. Using the .49 cavity it is supposed to dispense 7.9gr of AA5. I'll be filling 10 cartridges and checking each to get a feel for what's actually happening. I'll be shooting USPSA and want to make sure I meet minimum req's for major PF.

From the looks of it Acc. states that 8.5gr is max load which is what the .53 cavity dispenses. Too close for my liking. BUT, they list OAL at 1.230". Well within my usable range.

I've reloaded before, but it was rifle cartridges and almost 18 yrs ago. I'm pretty new to handguns but loving it so far. I still have a lot of reading to do.

Thanks for the reply's gang. I appreciate it!

 

[ranger335v]

"..am I correct in thinking that since I'm nowhere near max load that I should be fine?"

Yes.

Decreasing the powder space by seating deeper does increase pressures in handguns (rarely so in rifles tho) but not very much in larger cases using reduced charges. The smaller the case, the lower the internal volume and the higher the pressure changes will be.

A seating change that could be significant in the piddily/tiny 9mm won't mean much in your .40. Or my man-sized .45 ACP/1911!


Aw, no offense, I'm just funning you guys with the pea shooters. A little.

 

[rcmodel]

Using the .49 cavity it is supposed to dispense 7.9gr of AA5.

Don't take Lee's word for what it will dispense.

What they say and what you get may be two very different things depending on the powder lot & freshness. As well as how you personally operate the measure.

Always check your powder measure disk with the powder you are using with a Powder Scale before you go for it.

rc

 

[Walkalong]

As posted, the .45 is much less "volatile" as far as shorter O.A.L.'s, but yes, it will increase the pressure and is that much more reason to start low and work up. As someone who likes and has shot a lot of AA #5, especially in 9MM and .45, I would not start at 8.5 Grs either, despite the fact that 1.260 will hardly make a difference vs 1.270.

 

[rfwobbly]

I have an XD45 and will be using 8.5gr of AA-No.5 Velocity should be at about 800 with an OAL of 1.270 for 230gr RN bullets. This is mid-range for the bullets/powder I'm using.

IME, traditional round nose bullets hardly ever offend. The bullets you have to watch for are the ones that bring the full diameter well out in front of the case mouth, like the Hornady XTP.

You're doing right to start with RN bullets. Leave the conical FP bullets for further on down the reloading adventure road.

 

[RidgwayCO]

To expand a little on rc's excellent warning about the Lee powder disk system, don't just throw one drop, weigh it, and call it good. You need to throw several drops with one cavity in place to let the powder settle before weighing a drop. Five to ten drops before measuring one should work OK. If you're using a Lee turret press, a couple of trips around the turret with you working the press handle should settle the powder adequately. YMMV

 

[rg1]

Your load using AA#5 at 8.5 grains with 230fmj's may be excessive. I think you'd find a load from 7.9-8.1 will get you to the 800fps range. Only way to tell is working up with a chronograph. My experience is 8.3 grains of AA#5 is as high as I would want to go. Depends on your gun and components used though. Loads with 1.260-1.270" for 230 fmj's feed fine in my different 45's.

 

[Quoheleth]

It's been my experience with the Lee discs that they usually over-state what they drop. AA#5, Unique and others I have on my shelf are this way - they might say a particular disc will drop 4.0gr but in reality it's several tenths short. Bullseye is one exception - it will usually drop BE exactly as their charts show.

Nevertheless, the folks who suggest weighing to verify are right.

And I concur completely with the frustration about needing a charge that falls in between the discs.

A suggestion - for about $15 or so, you can get the upgrade kit for your auto disc --- you get the larger powder hopper with better base, the screw-in riser, and an adjustable charge bar. The charge bar alone is worth the deal - you can have almost infinite powder settings. The only thing it does not do well is the micro-charges of powder for small cartridges like .380 or .38 mouse-fart Bullseye loads.

Q

 

[AgaveHound]

Well, I just finished loading 50 rounds.

The powder was not as consistent as I'd like to see. I measured each round and had 4 @ 7.6 and 1 oddball that came out at 7.5. I had 6 @ 8.1. The rest came in at 7.7 - 7.9 with a couple at 8.0. My OAL was a bit over at 1.230-1.237 but I don't think that's anything to worry about.

I used the Accurate table for my recipe and was shooting for 7.7gr with an OAL of 1.230. The velocity at 7.7 is listed at 852 which is will put me well within the USPSA major power factor. So, if I can keep away from the low end of the loads I should be fine. I DON'T want to have to measure each round. Ugh!

I'm not too impressed with the Lee turret press at the moment. Perhaps once I get everything tuned it will work smoother. This particular press had issues with the primer arm not staying seated, the turret wouldn't always index and I had to remove the powder bin 4x to clean it as the disk wouldn't retract due to powder getting between the disk and the powder bin. A file fixed the primer arm and the retraction problems but I'm too tired to fix the indexing issue.

Thanks for the help guys! I'll post tomorrow how they shoot.

 

[AgaveHound]

Upgrade kit...upgrade kit...:banghead:

I just ordered the riser, but the kit sounds like it will put an end to the consistency issue. Thanks!

 

[ants]

For your chosen powder and the amount you want to use, the Adjustable Charge Bar works great.

'Season' every single part of your powder measure and powder-through-expanding-die with powdered graphite. Don't just dust a little on the parts, drown them thoroughly!!! The black stuff on the outside of gunpowder granules is powdered graphite to help it flow and reduce static charge. Coating your powder measure is the perfect complement to that. It works.

You're doing fine. Step by step. Keep it up, Chaz!!!

By the way, since you're using 230g bullets it will be much easier to make Major Power Factor. Your intended load will meet PF just fine. Have fun shooting.

 

[pmec]

I have a 9mm and the spec says "Max OAL = 1.169". That's great if the ogive of the bullet complies with the spec. I have hollow points that if I set the cartridge at 1.130" OAL, it jams into the rifling and would cause a significant increase in pressure. I have to make the OAL 1.080 in this case.

A good way to find out if your bullet is contacting the rifling is to strip your gun down to the barrel, insert your cartridge and try to turn it. If the brass is contacting the step in the barrel and the bullet isn't hitting the rifling, it should turn smoothly. If it doesn't, your bullet isn't inserted deep enough into the brass.

Hope I helped.

 

[Walkalong]

The powder was not as consistent as I'd like to see. I measured each round and had 4 @ 7.6 and 1 oddball that came out at 7.5. I had 6 @ 8.1. The rest came in at 7.7 - 7.9 with a couple at 8.0.

That's really bad for a fine flattened ball powder like AA #5. It should hold +/- .1 gr easily. It meters like a dream from my Redding 10X.

8.5 Grs of AA #5 and a Zero 230 Gr JHP loaded at 1.245 using WLP primers gave me an Avg 859 FPS from a 4" Kimber CDP at 85 degrees. It is stout, and will obviously give over 850 in 5" barrels. (Yes, I worked up to it)

 

[Sunray]

"...traditional round nose bullets hardly ever offend..." And you'd have to be excessively unlucky if they do. Load 'em to the max OAL of 1.275". A shorter OAL can give you feeding issues.
"...will be using 8.5gr..." Work up the load from the Starting load of 7.8. Don't just pick one and hope.

 

[rfwobbly]

The powder was not as consistent as I'd like to see. I measured each round and had 4 @ 7.6 and 1 oddball that came out at 7.5. I had 6 @ 8.1. The rest came in at 7.7 - 7.9 with a couple at 8.0.

Accuracy starts with having the exact same powder load in each round. One of the Lee powder measures offers a variable powder bar option. Maybe you had better look into that upgrade too.

 

[AgaveHound]

I just fired off most of the rounds. I didn't get a chance to fire off the 7.6 or the 8.0+ rounds as the guys had to leave. I shot off all of the 7.7-7.9gr rounds and the muzzle flip was just a tad high.

The Accurate website lists 7.7 as the starting point for reloading lead bullets but the velocity at that load is higher than I want to go. I'd like to try some at about 7.5gr and see how they feel. Lizard, one the gent's I shot with, has a chrono to check the actual velocity.

Another guy suggested the Lee Perfect powder measure. Does anyone else think that's the correct route to go?

 

[Steve H]

The other day I made up some .45's with the following: 8.0 AA#5, Winchester JHP 230 grns. with a OAL of 1.215. Ran them through my XD45, no chrono. Shot well, feed well but the load did feel a tad strong. I would not go any higher on the powder.

 

[AgaveHound]

Yeah, going higher is NOT on the table.

I want a lighter load to reduce flip as the loads are for competition.

I was just checking out the Lee Perfect Powder...and it's a stand alone dispenser. I was hoping to stay away from that as I use the turret press. How about the upgade kit for the disk dispenser...any reviews?

 

[rfwobbly]

Chaz -
1) First you want to compare the chrono readings with the speeds shown in the book. That will tell you if you are going faster or slower than what the book loads calculate. That's important to know because in pistol competitions you may be asked to prove that you are at or above the minimum bullet speeds for your class.

2) If you're above the min speed at 7.7gr, then you CAN go lower. But a lower power load may ALSO demand a lower force spring on the slide in order to get the gun to cycle at the new lower power level. Lower force springs are easily obtained from several sources like Wolff Spring.

3) Once you confirm that 7.5gr will meet the competition minimums, then you can start trying the lower spring force.

4) If that just doesn't "get 'er done" in the muzzle flip department, then you MIGHT have to think in terms of a) a heavier pistol*, or b) a new but slightly slower powder. With either one you get to start the entire process all over again. Fun eh?

All the best.


* Your mother and I tried to get you to buy the 1911, but no-no you wouldn't have it. You just had to have the plastic gun.

 

[AgaveHound]

rfwobbly

1) I was told they take 8 rounds from you, chrono 3 rounds then pull 3 bullets to figure the power factor. Bullet weight x velocity/1000= power factor. So, 230 x 800 / 1000 = 184. I'm looking to meet minimum of 165 so to be safe my target is 171-175. The bullets I've got all measured above 229 so I'll use that as one of my factors. 229 x 800 = 183, well above my target. Using 229 I can go as low as 750 on velocity. But to be safe I'll shoot for velocity of 775.

2) I shot some of my buddy's bullets which had a MUCH lower flip. Can't recall the load, but his PF was calculated at 175- 178. My XD had no issues cycling them so I'm not too concerned, but I'll keep it in my thoughts as I work up a load.

3) I also shot my buddy's metal frame 1911 single stack. I almost wet my pants. His trigger is lighter and the flip was so much less than my XD that I WILL be getting a metal frame to compete with. Maybe drop down to a 40 or even a 9mm so I can shoot/reload with my daughter once she's strong enough to operate the slide by herself. She's only 8 yrs old and wants to shoot desperately so once she's able to rack a 9mm slide by herself she'll be joining the ranks of the Junior Class of USPSA.

4) And Yes, I rarely listened to my parents. I should have saved more money and gone straight to the 1911, but I had no idea I'd want to compete so much.

At least my wife is not only agreeable but actually encouraging our daughter to shoot. Lucky Me! er, US!

 

[Skip_a_roo]

I'm late to this dance but will take a trip around the floor anyway.

In my opinion, when you get the velocity with AA#5 that you are looking for, you aren't going to like it very well. In my experience, and just to clear something up, I like AA powders a bunch, AA#5 just doesn't like to be downloaded any at all! You already are reducing the operating pressure by extending the OAL by .030" and going below the suggested minimum in that scenario may just get you a stuck bullet. Don't ask how I know that!

If it was me, and I load a lot of AA powder in the 45ACP, I would change to AA#2 and load about 5.2gr of it under that lead 230gr LRN. That is what I do and at 1.255" I am getting right at 800fps from my PT1911 and M625JM.

It looks like this:


The cautions about weighing charges from the Lee powder measure are spot on. There is another solution, the adjustable charge bar for the Lee measures. They are pretty cheap and very functional for adjusting loads.
Here:
http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1288557994.227=/html/catalog/powhan1.html

Hope this helps!

 

[Walkalong]

I would change to AA#2 and load about 5.2gr of it under that lead 230gr LRN

Agreed. You will get there with less muzzle flip. Most, if not all, competitors use powders faster than AA #5.

Nice looking round Skip a roo, very nice.