Do I want a .223 or .308 bolt gun?

[TCW]

I'm in the market for a bolt gun to keep my mini-14 company. It's primary use will be for punching paper (fun) and for that unlikely SHTF scenario (defense). The mini's nice, but I want to get something that would do a scope justice

I don't hunt nor do I reload (hence the interest in low cost calibers).

I know that both will do fine at my local shooting range (= 125 yards), but was wondering if I did ever have to use the gun in a defensive situation, could the .223 handle it? For fun lets say 200 yds max. Is the 223 still effective at that range?

I like the idea of a .223 because of the lower recoil, shared ammo w/ the mini. Also, no to much overpenetration issues if used in a closer urban/suburban environment.

OTOH, .308 might be nice because it's...well more powerful, and I already have a .223.

Thanks for the opinions!
TCW

 

[Combat-wombat]

In terms of logistics and economics, the .223 would be a good choice to pair up with your mini-14. One supply of ammo, two guns. Not to mention that .223 is cheaper than .308

On the other hand, .308 would give you more versatility in what ranges/possibly size of game (survival food in SHTF) you could handle.

If I were you, I'd probably end up with .308. I'd like to have a more powerful rifle that could take most 2/4 legged targets at a longer range.

 

[Taurus 66]

Ruger carbine, right? Get the Mini-Thirty.


Oh I see! Bolt action! Heheh ... Sorry it's been a long day and my eyes are burning looking at this bright monitor. How much are you looking to spend? Because here's some to check into:

http://www.christensenarms.com/carbontactical.htm

Ehhh!!!!!!!!! You want "inexpensive". Battin' a thousand with this post! I'm going to bed!

 

[russlate]

Get the CZ527 in 223. About $600 The full-stock one is beautiful. Scope it and enjoy.

Or get an AK variant in 7.62x39 for around $350. Then get a SKS for under $200 or a CZ527 in 7.62x39 caliber also about $550 or $600. 223 ammo is cheap. 7.62x39 is even cheaper in ball or hollow point.

I have an FN/FAL 7.62x51 ( aka 308 Win ) that I'm upgrading. They are still selling for maybe $550 latest I saw. I picked up a Savage 99 that needs a new forestock and butt for an erstwhile "hunting" rifle. The 308 ammo ( or ball 7.62x51 ) is more expensive than 223 or 7.62x39. But then it's a full battle rifle caliber loaded to Korean war 30-06 velocities, and 308 is almost as plentiful as 30-06 at the local Wal-mart or sporting goods store.

Almost any boltgun can be had in 223 or 308. The CZ and Charles Daly are the only bolt rifle ones offhand made in 7.62x39 I know of. Then again I have an FN49 in 7x57 I want to get a bolt gun to compliment.

 

[itgoesboom]

.223 with the proper bullets, and the proper twist, will be effective at 200 yards. Period.

If you are 100% certain that you will never, ever, ever, possibly have to shoot more than 200 yards, go for the .223.

Otherwise, get the .308.

I.G.B.

 

[rbernie]

I'd get the .308 - it gives you access to a more powerful cartridge and gives you twice as much chance of keeping da beast stocked in a SHTF scenario. Why duplicate something you already have?

 

[TCW]

Thanks for the replies.

If you only had a mini-14 and a Rem 870, and required a more serious rifle, which would you choose?:

1. A used bolt .308 ($300) AND a Yugo SKS ($200)
or...
2. A CMP M1 Grand ($500)

 

[mustanger98]

While I always second any positive mention of a CMP M1 Garand, if I'm considering the question of .223 vs .308, I'd have to say get one of each. You might get Savage's Model 11 which comes in both calibers and don't cost as much as the other namebrands so getting both won't hurt so bad in the wallet. Ruger's M77 Mk2 is a good quality .223 also- it has a 1:12 twist so it'll handle bullets up to 62grains. (68grains and it'll keyhole at 50yds.) If you get both, then you gotta get a M14/M1A to round it out.

 

[Chris Rhines]

Why do you limit yourself to the .223 or the .308?

If you're only going to be punching paper, a .22LR bolt rifle is a better choice than either. Cheaper rifle, much cheaper ammo, more accurate. A Kimber .22LR boltgun with a decent 4x scope will run under a kilobuck, and you can amaze your friends by picking the pips from a playing card at fifty yards.

For defensive work, either the Mini-14 or the shotgun would be a better choice than any bolt gun you care to name.

- Chris

 

[Jesse308]

At only 125yards, I would go with the .223 because it is cheaper than .308 but if you really want to keep and cost down and punch paper get a .22

 

[El Rojo]

If you don't hunt and you don't reload, then what the heck do you need a bolt action .223 or .308 for? I would get the .223 if I was hunting varmints and the .308 if I was hunting varmints, big game, or long range matches. Other than that, I couldn't see getting a bolt gun for just punching holes in paper at 125 yards or the mythical SHTF. That mini-14 is all you need for the SHTF as it is.

I was just getting ready to say get an AR-15 if you want a good scoped SHTF rifle, but I was smart enough to check and see that you do in fact live in the PRK, so forget that.

Here is what I recommend. Get the .223 bolt gun if you absolutely want one. Since you don't reload, good quality factory .223 ammo is quite a bit cheaper than .308. You most likely won't be satisified with the results of surplus or FMJ ammo you use in your Mini-14 in the bolt gun. If I couldn't shoot squirrels and coyotes with my FAB-10, I probably wouldn't have bothered buying a .223.

If you are in a more serious rifle mood, you most certainly need a Garand if nothing else. Everyone should have one and the CMP is the way to go. The SKS is also an excellent rifle package, but should only complement a Garand.

 

[WhiteKnight]

.223 because of the lower recoil, shared ammo w/ the mini.

Ding ding ding!

 

[308win]

I believe the US services rate the maximum effective range of the 5.56 at 600 meters. Operational effective range is probably less unless you are an exceptional marksman, capable of doping extenal balistics, the wind, speed of the target, etc. At ranges over a couple hundred yards, the capability of the 308 isn't going to help you much if these skills aren't sharp. Stay with the Mini and get yourself a good shottie and pistol.

 

[Moondoggie]

To answer your question about effective range regarding a .223...

I've sent many a Prairie Dog to the promised land @ 300 yds (some more, some less) using a 700 BDL Varmint & 3x9 scope from a prone position. .223 in a quality bolt action rifle is a whole different animal than "spray & pray" from a semi-auto. I'm not knocking AR's or similar rifles, just relating my experience of bolt vs. semi rifles in .223/5.56 with regard to target accuracy and effective range.

.223 will be cheaper to feed and easier to lay behind than .308. If you're thinking about doing any hunting .223 is fine for small critters but for deer or anything larger you'd be better off with .308.

Just my .02 cents. Whichever you decide....enjoy!

 

[mustanger98]

Now, with what's been mentioned about .22LR bolt guns for target work, I'd have to add that 1) I've shot claybirds off the bank at 100yds with an old .22 (and I do mean old; I think Savage built it for Sears&Roebuck back when) and open sights and it does quite well, and 2) I've read of a club out in southern PRK where they shoot their .22 rifles out to 400yds and the results surprises those who don't. Both Marlin and Savage make bolt action .22LR rifles while are quite good and quite affordable.

As for what's been said about .223, I'm thinking if you want to get the most out of a .223 bolt gun (or a .308 too for that matter) you're gonna have to take up handloading. It's not near as scary as it sounds once you get started having worked up some with a more experience handloader.

 

[yorec]

Do I want a .223 or .308 bolt gun?

Why yes, you do!

But since you decided to go 'either or,' - I'd stick with the .308. Better power and with that, more able in a SHTF scenario. For regular self defense, there isn't much call for a Bolt action at all, so I'd lean to the SHTF scenarios...

 

[TCW]

308win:
Thanks...that's good advice, but I've already got a Sig P226, Ruger GP100, Rem 870 (in addition to the mini).

TCW

 

[R.H. Lee]

If you want a serious rifle, you want a .308. Anything less than .30 cal is just a toy IMO.

 

[Fumbler]

Well I'll be darned.
My friend's 7mm Weatherby Magnum is just a toy.
I'll let him know tomorrow that my .308 is a real rifle.

 

[Marshall]

A .308 would give a you more rounded collection and better ability. Besides, 308 is just classic bolt gun cartridge, keep your .223 for your semi's.

 

[El Rojo]

I don't know. A plain jane .308 bolt gun that you have to buy factory ammo for sounds awfully expensive for just plinking at 125 yards. Yes he will have plenty of versitility as he can probably find some factory 125 gr. loads all the way to 180 gr. hunting bullets. BUT HE DOESN'T HUNT! I have shot my 150 gr. FMJ reloads out of my Remington 700 VS and the accuracy was horrible. Once you shoot MOA with good quality ammo and then you shoot like 3"+ groups with surplus ammo, it will ruin your whole day.

Unless you want to start reloading and hunting, I just don't see how a bolt .308 is going to bring you much satisfaction. I would recommend the Garand or SKS for you at this point rather than a large caliber scoped bolt gun that you really won't have much use for. Now if you had a range out past 125 yards, it might be fun. But you can only shoot steel plates or paper at 125 yards for about ten minutes before that gets boring. No matter how long you are out there, it is going to be expensive.

So my new recommendation is:

1) Still want a scoped bolt gun, go .223. It will be much cheaper for what you are going to be doing. Even better, 125 yards is very doable with a .22LR and would be your cheapest route. Horrible for SHTF, but your best bet for cheap scoped fun.

2) Do not go over .223 for the scoped gun. If you want a "bigger" rifle than .223, get a semi-auto, iron sighted rifle. Low end an SKS would be excellent as the ammo is rather cheap and they are a lot of fun (the first gun I ever bought for myself was a SKS when I was 17). Mid-range would be an M1 Garand from the CMP. The ammo is going to cost you quite a bit, but you can't go wrong for SHTF in the PRK with a Garand. Next mid-range would be an M1 Carbine. Your ammo is still pretty high cost and the M1 Carbine probably has less punch than your Mini-14, but a fun gun. High-range would be a Springfield-Armory M1A. The M1A is a .308 caliber best used with iron sights, but has the capability to be scoped and be quite accurate.

3)I just realized a new realm that I am not that much into, but would be fun. Get a .357, .44 magnum, or .30-30 lever gun. I would recommend the .357 because the ammo is going to be cheapest. Really the gun probably won't have a long range distance advantage over your mini-14, but it is bigger and you can scope those guns too. Check out Winchester, Marlin, or Ruger.

The only thing that would change my recommendations if you plan on hunting or reloading. If you aren't doing either of those things, I don't see much point in you having a bolt action, large caliber rifle. It would be more accuracy and punch than you could probably use. Now a good lever action or semi-auto gun will be more fun and you can easily use it for SHTF. Really for an urban environment, what you have now is just fine. There are about a million different questions you really need to ask yourself about SHTF for your area, but those are best for another forum. Really the SHTF is a mythical event blown to fanatical proportions by us Internet junkies. So don't get this next gun for SHTF, get it because you want it, you can use it, and it will be fun. And if nothing else, use my list as a shopping list. I started it all with an SKS at age 17 and about 10 years and 18 rifles later I am still working on my list.

 

[Swamprabbit]

I recommend a .223 bolt gun. For one thing, if you aren't used to shooting much, the blast and recoil of a .308 may do more damage to your accuracy than good. If you don't get to practice out past 125 yards, you won't gain any trajectory/wind knowledge that you'll need to make long shots anyway.

Besides, don't let anyone sell the little .223 short. It can be VERY effective. Most bolt guns have a slower twist so you'll be using lighter bullets than the military but you will be able to make great shots out to 400yds if you have the chance. Ask any prairie dog or coyote hunter.

As for ammo, yes the .223 is cheaper but since you shouldn't be blasting away ammo by the case with a bolt gun, the costs shouldn't be significant. Also, don't waste time with cheap ball, or surplus, ammo in your bolt gun. Stay with the good stuff or just stick with your Mini-14. No need in wasting money on an accurate rifle if you're not going to feed it what it can shoot.

 

[standingbear]

Id suggest you get a 223....308 bolt actions are nice guns but for paper-punching,they are a tad too expensive but for hunting..they're a great caliber.



I have a .223 remington caliber ruger M77 topped with a 6-24x tasco scope that I have sighted in at 150 yards and combined with the 51 grain vmax bullets,its as consistant and accurate as I can want.My ruger was added specificaly for varmiting and long range target shooting with accuracy as the number 1 objective after buying a bushmaster shortie for plinking fun.the ammo's not cheap for the vmax ammo(which is basically a plastic tipped hollowpoint) but in terms of accuracy and performance,it goes a long way.I have shot groundhogs with my ruger at well over 200 yards on most occasions and a 223 vmax will definatly open them up at that range..get the good stuff for your bolt action and save the fmj for the semi.



pick a caliber..get several types of ammo to see what your gun likes best then stick with 1 type that is consistant and accurate.different twist rates in rifling will give you different results in bullet weights and accuracy.its your choice but for cost and sheer shooting fun,Id go with a 223.

 

[greg531mi]

Get a 308, you can reach out and touch someone with that one.

 

[larryw]

Both are just fine., but I'd lean towards the 223 given the info provided.

Barrel twist has been mentioned. As a general rule of thumb, 223 bolt guns are available with a 12" twist (1 in 12) and a 9" (1 in 9). 12" twist works great for lighter bullets, like the 40gr and starts to have problems stabilizing heavier than 55gr. 9" twist is happiest with 55gr+

Now I realize that technically, twist rates for bullet stabilization has nothing to do with weight, but bullet length. But for all practical purposes, such as those who don't want to disassemble ammo to measure bullet lengths and then run the math in the Greenhill formula, weight is just fine.

So if you choose the 223 for the mythical SHTF scenario, stick with the shorter (9") twist guns so you can take those 600M shots with the heavier (longer) bullets.