Do I want a .223 or .308 bolt gun?
- Thread starter TCW
- Start date
- Status
El Rojo
Member
GARAND! GARAND! GARAND!
no,
SKS! SKS! SKS!
NO,
BOTH! BOTH! BOTH!
Start with an SKS as for about $300 you should be able to get the rifle and 1000 rounds of ammo. Then take that other $200 and save up for the Garand. Welcome to the rifle club. Leave your credit card on the counter and start looking at the old surplus guns too. Fun times.
no,
SKS! SKS! SKS!
NO,
BOTH! BOTH! BOTH!
Start with an SKS as for about $300 you should be able to get the rifle and 1000 rounds of ammo. Then take that other $200 and save up for the Garand. Welcome to the rifle club. Leave your credit card on the counter and start looking at the old surplus guns too. Fun times.
WhiteKnight
Member
Yes, precisely, because we all know that his first order of business upon purchase of the rifle will be a long range shooting spree.
Oh wait, he said the primary use will be for punching paper (fun).
Leaky Waders
Member
I have a .223 and like it....
here's the post talking about it (if it works...). If not then just search ".223 bolt" in rifles and read up on the few posts that come up.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=32361&highlight=.223+bolt
V/R,
L.W.
here's the post talking about it (if it works...). If not then just search ".223 bolt" in rifles and read up on the few posts that come up.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=32361&highlight=.223+bolt
V/R,
L.W.
standingbear
Member
Ruger makes a dandy bolt action and they supply the scope rings with the rifle too...they are rock solid.you might find a used one in the 300-400 dollar range.
you also might consider a contender ..you can switch calibers fairly easily and they are pretty accurate.Ive seen folks hunt with the magnum calibers for deer and swap the barrels to shoot varmits with the smaller calibers...all in 1 gun set up.
you also might consider a contender ..you can switch calibers fairly easily and they are pretty accurate.Ive seen folks hunt with the magnum calibers for deer and swap the barrels to shoot varmits with the smaller calibers...all in 1 gun set up.
Given your parameters, I would say get a .223 bolt gun. You will enjoy it more. The additional recoil of .308 will be enough to bother you after a long shooting session. You could shoot .223 all day.
And a good .223 bolt gun will be as accurate as a .308 at 200 yards. Accurate enough to reward the development of good shooting skills.
If TSHTF, a .308 would be nice for the additional power, but for day-in, day out, enjoyment, go .223.
And a good .223 bolt gun will be as accurate as a .308 at 200 yards. Accurate enough to reward the development of good shooting skills.
If TSHTF, a .308 would be nice for the additional power, but for day-in, day out, enjoyment, go .223.
El Rojo
Member
For me personally, I wouldn't want a Remington pump or semi-auto rifle. The whole point of having a semi-auto is higher magazine capacity. Those semi-autos and pumps only hold like 4 rounds. You might as well save up and get an M1A. Or get a Garand. Sure it is only 8 rounds, but it reloads super quick and I bet the accuracy difference without a scope on the Garand vs. the Remington guns is negligible.
Just get a scoped bolt gun before you get one of those semi-autos or pumps. You have more accuracy potential out of the bolt gun with very little difference anywhere else. Once you get good, there won't be much difference between working a bolt gun and that pump.
Just get a scoped bolt gun before you get one of those semi-autos or pumps. You have more accuracy potential out of the bolt gun with very little difference anywhere else. Once you get good, there won't be much difference between working a bolt gun and that pump.
tbige
Member
Think, as someone else suggested, you're setting up a false choice of calibers -- and thus rifles. My choice: a good bolt gun in .243 -- more punch at longer ranges, far less recoil than .308, great accuracy, universally available cheap ammo.
El Rojo
Member
tbige, you have forgot one important aspect of a good SHTF gun. There is a good chance he will be pulling ammunition off of the dead bodies of the blue helmeted raiders he kills or raiding a military ammo depot. I don't think there will be ammo cans full of .243 laying about waiting for him to pilfer and take back to his hiding place in suburbia.
tbige
Member
Damn, you're right, El Rojo. Guess I was swayed by the fact that I find either an SKS or a scoped bolt gun uncomfortable to sleep with. Perhaps the flack jacket he'll need to sleep with every night will take care of that problem, though.
I'm a little disturbed by the apparent presumption that when S hits TF his targets will all by a nice comfortable distance away (200+ yards). So I'd have to recommend that part of his budget be reserved for a nice short-barreled 12 guage. And since, as you point out, ammo is a concern, he'll also need a decent 9mm handgun.
All this, and we haven't gotten into the food, water, shelter, and communications issues.
Frankly, I still think he'd have more fun with a .243, and maybe that Yugo on the side.
I'm a little disturbed by the apparent presumption that when S hits TF his targets will all by a nice comfortable distance away (200+ yards). So I'd have to recommend that part of his budget be reserved for a nice short-barreled 12 guage. And since, as you point out, ammo is a concern, he'll also need a decent 9mm handgun.
All this, and we haven't gotten into the food, water, shelter, and communications issues.
Frankly, I still think he'd have more fun with a .243, and maybe that Yugo on the side.
Ahhh...the mocking has begun.
As previously stated, I already have a Sig P226, Ruger GP100, Rem 870 (in addition to the mini).
Not everyone who wants a gun that can shoot better than a mini-14 at the range (or just in general) is a U.N. fearing wack-job. Get off your high horses, fellas.
You stated: "I'm a little disturbed by the apparent presumption that when S hits TF his targets will all by a nice comfortable distance away (200+ yards)"
No assumption like this has been asserted. However it's not unreasonable to want more accuracy that a mini-14. Or maybe we should issue our police sharp shooters mini's and expect the same results.
As previously stated, I already have a Sig P226, Ruger GP100, Rem 870 (in addition to the mini).
Not everyone who wants a gun that can shoot better than a mini-14 at the range (or just in general) is a U.N. fearing wack-job. Get off your high horses, fellas.
You stated: "I'm a little disturbed by the apparent presumption that when S hits TF his targets will all by a nice comfortable distance away (200+ yards)"
No assumption like this has been asserted. However it's not unreasonable to want more accuracy that a mini-14. Or maybe we should issue our police sharp shooters mini's and expect the same results.
happy old sailor
Member
tbige, you are absolutely correct in your statement about the .243. that is my biggest small gun, next caliber up is .308. the TC conterder is a good choice too. switch calibers in a minute. the TC encore could be better. some whopping calibers avail there. barrels 16 inches and more. more barrels are way cheaoer than more guns. and, you can leave your sighted in scope on the barrel. can have a .223 bbl and a .308 bbl for about the same price as one good bolt gun. and....and.... the short gun will hide under a coat in winter. walk up smiling and whuup out the .45-70. soft body armor will not be defeated, but, the round will stuff the indivual with it. ouch. then, there is a .308 Garand to consider. as they say in austreyelia, thasa gun. one further point. you are just gonna hafta reload to realize the potential of most, and i mean, most, guns. happy shooting this new year.
El Rojo
Member
Sorry TCW, I was afraid you might take that personal. Please don't. I meant no harm by it.
Here is the way I look at SHTF. We all buy guns and in the back of our minds we think about someday having to fight off hoards of maurading invaders or looters and how we are going to live that mythical, glorious battle in our heads. Fortunately, it never happens. You buy a gun, it sits around, sometimes you go shoot it, maybe you shoot it a lot. Whatever happens, you never use it to fend of invaders or criminals. The S never HTFs.
And even if it did, how much do most of us really prepare for such a thing? I have many guns and lots of ammo, but I don't have much water or food stored. I don't have a backpack ready with the necessary items I might need if I need to go hide out somewhere. Really, I am just a guy with a bunch of guns and ammo that theoretically could put up a hell of a fire fight, but that is all theory. To me that is what SHTF is mainly, theory.
This is not to say there aren't more people out there that really are ready. Who really have thought this thing through and take it seriously. They are the ones who ask the tough questions to the pretenders like me and get me to realize that just because you have some guns and ammo, doesn't necessarily mean you are ready.
And at the same time there is another group of people who get onto the prepared and remind them that the odds of the SHTF are astronomically thin and that you shouldn't spend too much time worrying about it. Really everyone has a valid point in this and no I am not a relativity liberal. It is true. The odds of SHTF happening are quite thin and most people who do worry about SHTF really aren't that prepared for it. SHTF is a fun mental exercise for cyber geeks and gun collectors. A way to exercise the brain and to occasionally justify a gun purchase.
So I wasn't poking fun at you TCW. I was poking fun at us all and this notion that you really need a SHTF weapon. I wouldn't have a CCW and I wouldn't have as many guns and as much ammo as I have if I were the liberal stick my head in the sand type. However, I have to admit that some of this "need" for all of those guns and ammo is a figment of my imagination about the mythical SHTF.
That isn't to say the LA riots didn't happen in my life time and it is possible. Just highly unlikely.
What is the whole point of this? Buy whatever gun you want! Don't worry about SHTF. You are already set. And if you are really serious about SHTF, you need to think a lot more about than just having a gun, but what are your other non-gun plans and goals. I think too many of us (me included) place too much of our supposed "readiness" on a firearm and not enough on the logistics and planning of a true SHTF scenario.
Here is the way I look at SHTF. We all buy guns and in the back of our minds we think about someday having to fight off hoards of maurading invaders or looters and how we are going to live that mythical, glorious battle in our heads. Fortunately, it never happens. You buy a gun, it sits around, sometimes you go shoot it, maybe you shoot it a lot. Whatever happens, you never use it to fend of invaders or criminals. The S never HTFs.
And even if it did, how much do most of us really prepare for such a thing? I have many guns and lots of ammo, but I don't have much water or food stored. I don't have a backpack ready with the necessary items I might need if I need to go hide out somewhere. Really, I am just a guy with a bunch of guns and ammo that theoretically could put up a hell of a fire fight, but that is all theory. To me that is what SHTF is mainly, theory.
This is not to say there aren't more people out there that really are ready. Who really have thought this thing through and take it seriously. They are the ones who ask the tough questions to the pretenders like me and get me to realize that just because you have some guns and ammo, doesn't necessarily mean you are ready.
And at the same time there is another group of people who get onto the prepared and remind them that the odds of the SHTF are astronomically thin and that you shouldn't spend too much time worrying about it. Really everyone has a valid point in this and no I am not a relativity liberal. It is true. The odds of SHTF happening are quite thin and most people who do worry about SHTF really aren't that prepared for it. SHTF is a fun mental exercise for cyber geeks and gun collectors. A way to exercise the brain and to occasionally justify a gun purchase.
So I wasn't poking fun at you TCW. I was poking fun at us all and this notion that you really need a SHTF weapon. I wouldn't have a CCW and I wouldn't have as many guns and as much ammo as I have if I were the liberal stick my head in the sand type. However, I have to admit that some of this "need" for all of those guns and ammo is a figment of my imagination about the mythical SHTF.
That isn't to say the LA riots didn't happen in my life time and it is possible. Just highly unlikely.
What is the whole point of this? Buy whatever gun you want! Don't worry about SHTF. You are already set. And if you are really serious about SHTF, you need to think a lot more about than just having a gun, but what are your other non-gun plans and goals. I think too many of us (me included) place too much of our supposed "readiness" on a firearm and not enough on the logistics and planning of a true SHTF scenario.
tbige
Member
Knew El Rojo would take my last post in the light spirit in which it was meant.
Since all haven't, though, I want to be the first -- and loudest -- to agree with his thorough and thoughtful assessment. The main effect of the SHTF notion is to sell a lot of cheap guns that otherwise wouldn't have been bought and make paranoia fashionable.
The odds are exceedingly thin, though where and how you live has an impact. But, on an mostly individual basis, the S does HTF on a daily basis -- robberies, home invasions, drive-by's and so-on. And every so often, the would-be victim is indeed ready. And when they are, I'm sure the stats will bear out that in the vast majority of cases, the weapon that comes to the rescue is a handgun.
Since all haven't, though, I want to be the first -- and loudest -- to agree with his thorough and thoughtful assessment. The main effect of the SHTF notion is to sell a lot of cheap guns that otherwise wouldn't have been bought and make paranoia fashionable.
The odds are exceedingly thin, though where and how you live has an impact. But, on an mostly individual basis, the S does HTF on a daily basis -- robberies, home invasions, drive-by's and so-on. And every so often, the would-be victim is indeed ready. And when they are, I'm sure the stats will bear out that in the vast majority of cases, the weapon that comes to the rescue is a handgun.
tbige
Member
Knew El Rojo would take my last post in the light spirit in which it was meant.
Since all haven't, though, I want to be the first -- and loudest -- to agree with his thorough and thoughtful assessment. The main effect of the SHTF notion is to sell a lot of cheap guns that otherwise wouldn't have been bought and make paranoia fashionable.
The odds are exceedingly thin, though where and how you live has an impact. But, on an mostly individual basis, the S does HTF on a daily basis -- robberies, home invasions, drive-by's and so-on. And every so often, the would-be victim is indeed ready. And when they are, I'm sure the stats will bear out that in the vast majority of cases, the weapon that comes to the rescue is a handgun -- hardly the subject of this thread, the title of which is "Do I want a .223 or .308 bolt gun, " which the writer quickly explains is mainly for accurately punching paper.
Since all haven't, though, I want to be the first -- and loudest -- to agree with his thorough and thoughtful assessment. The main effect of the SHTF notion is to sell a lot of cheap guns that otherwise wouldn't have been bought and make paranoia fashionable.
The odds are exceedingly thin, though where and how you live has an impact. But, on an mostly individual basis, the S does HTF on a daily basis -- robberies, home invasions, drive-by's and so-on. And every so often, the would-be victim is indeed ready. And when they are, I'm sure the stats will bear out that in the vast majority of cases, the weapon that comes to the rescue is a handgun -- hardly the subject of this thread, the title of which is "Do I want a .223 or .308 bolt gun, " which the writer quickly explains is mainly for accurately punching paper.
El Rojo
Member
That is another good point. What does SHTF mean to you guys? I think of total and all out, life changing event. I wouldn't consider a home invasion or a CCW shooting a SHTF scenario personally. I think of SHTF as someone just nuked Los Angeles and the hoards of radioactive Angelinos flee north and in their state of shock and craziness they try to invade my town in the ensuing chaos. At which time the S has HTF and my neighborhood bands together to fight off the invading suburbian masses that seek to steal our food, shelter, and kill us. Another SHTF would be a major disaster happens and martial law is declared and UN peace keeping troops come to the PRK to restore order. Basically any major event where law and order, normal life, and a major imminient threat makes me need to take up arms in a life and death struggle. Shooting some scum bucket that decides to rob Taco Bell while I am eating there is not SHTF for me.
This is worthy of a new thread. And here that thead is!
This is worthy of a new thread. And here that thead is!
tbige
Member
Once again I find that El Rojo has expressed the issue better than I could.
From El Rojo: "Basically any major event where law and order, normal life, and a major imminent threat makes me need to take up arms in a life and death struggle. Shooting some scum bucket that decides to rob Taco Bell while I am eating there is not SHTF for me."
Don't mean to be argumentative, flamer, or anything else, BUT!
ANY defensive shooting you are forced into is going to be a guaranteed "Life Altering Event" of the SHTF variety.
A perp that kicks in my front door in a "home invasion" attempt will be met with deadly force. I don't know what is in his mind, but the act suggests a complete lack of concern for my (and my family's) safety and is therefore life threatening to us. So he dies and I live!
Same with an ARMED perp robbing any public place that I happen to occupy at the same time. I'll never forget the mass murders in CA and TX at fast food restaurants. I must act to protect myself, and family if present. So he dies and I live!
The result in each case will alter my life.
First the Criminal "Justice" system, and then later the Civil "Justice" system, will get involved (and "justice" is in quotes for a reason). The only thing that matters in the first is politics, and in the second is $$! "Justice" is the furthest thing from "their" (prosecutor in first and trial lawyer in second) mind.
So, the moral of this post? Be mentally prepared as well as physically prepared.
And part of the physically prepared is to use unaltered firearms and factory ammunition. Just think about what a motivated prosecutor or trial lawyer would do with your hand loaded "murder" loads, or altered "killer" firearm!
God am I glad I'm out of the PDRKalifornistan!!
Don't mean to be argumentative, flamer, or anything else, BUT!
ANY defensive shooting you are forced into is going to be a guaranteed "Life Altering Event" of the SHTF variety.
A perp that kicks in my front door in a "home invasion" attempt will be met with deadly force. I don't know what is in his mind, but the act suggests a complete lack of concern for my (and my family's) safety and is therefore life threatening to us. So he dies and I live!
Same with an ARMED perp robbing any public place that I happen to occupy at the same time. I'll never forget the mass murders in CA and TX at fast food restaurants. I must act to protect myself, and family if present. So he dies and I live!
The result in each case will alter my life.
First the Criminal "Justice" system, and then later the Civil "Justice" system, will get involved (and "justice" is in quotes for a reason). The only thing that matters in the first is politics, and in the second is $$! "Justice" is the furthest thing from "their" (prosecutor in first and trial lawyer in second) mind.
So, the moral of this post? Be mentally prepared as well as physically prepared.
And part of the physically prepared is to use unaltered firearms and factory ammunition. Just think about what a motivated prosecutor or trial lawyer would do with your hand loaded "murder" loads, or altered "killer" firearm!
God am I glad I'm out of the PDRKalifornistan!!
- Status
