Does a handgun bullet leave barrel before recoil starts

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jbrown13

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I seem to recall reading somewhere that a handgun bullet is still in the barrel when the barrel starts to rise from recoil. In searching for a video of this occurring I came across 2 videos (links below) that seem to show the bullet is long gone before the barrel begins to rise. Can someone clear this up for me and point me to a video that shows the barrel rising before the bullet exits?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um9Eos9bJDk&p=4842AC9A702314D0&playnext=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b07otXKERA&p=4842AC9A702314D0
 
In a revolver, the bullet is still in the barrel as the muzzle starts to rise. Not long, but it is.
 
If you will search for my post, Muzzle Flash, you will see that the gun has not started to rise, and the bullet and gasses are long gone.
 
Newton 3 says that recoil must start at the instant the bullet moves.

To wit:

"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."

"Equal" being the operative word.

On a practical level...If you push on an object, you immediately get pushed by that object.

In a locked breech/recoil operated autopistol, the slide moves in recoil about one tenth of an inch when the bullet exits. So, there isn't much movement generated by the actual ballistic event...but move it must.
 
Recoil begins when the powder ignites. It is happening while the bullet is moving down the barrel (Newton-if the bullet is moving so is the gun). The amount of movement before the bullet leaves is very slight (probably a mm or 2 or less) but it is happening. Understanding this explains why variations in grip tension and hand position will affect bullet impact even though sight alignment is good. It also will explain why at close range bullet impact will often be lower with higher velocity loads (the slower bullet spends more time in the barrel so is affected more by barrel movement).

A great book to read is "Understanding Ballistics" by Robert Rinker. He uses a 2 tier approach. He explains each concept first and then goes into the math for those that are interested. Many people like to familiarize themselves with external and terminal ballistics but lack a good understanding of internal ballistics (before the bullet exits the barrel). Understanding those concepts will eliminate a good deal of "head scratching" when things don't go as predicted.
 
Here's an old fluroscope photo of a M1911 pistol caught about a half-inch before the bullet reaches the muzzle. Look closely at the position of the link, and at the relationship between the rear of the slide and frame. Here, the slide has moved approximately .075 inch or maybe a bit less.

Gun20Fired.jpg
 
Could that be the reason why Ruger shows the proper alignment of the sights to be on the bottom edge of the target instead of the target being down in the sights?
 
Could that be the reason why Ruger shows the proper alignment of the sights to be on the bottom edge of the target instead of the target being down in the sights?
Click to expand...

No. That's just a traditional "6 O'Clock Hold." It's used to enable the shooter to return the sights more closely to the same place.
More precise than trying to guess where your last shot was aimed in an unmarked circle. Adjustable sights can be set to coincide the point of aim/point of impact anywhere on the target that you wish.
 
You can test this for yourself by hand loading with different powders. For me in my Taurus 85UL, if I use a powder that is slow like Unique (I would not normally consider Unique slow, but I will for this comparison) the point of impact will be high. If I switch to a faster powder such as Solo 1000 (my favorite for a 38 Spl. snub nose) the point of impact will be lower. Why? Because with the slower powder the gun has more time to rise due to recoil before the bullet leaves than it does with the faster powder. :)
 
If you look closely at the sights on a handgun you will see that the front sight is higher than the rear which puts the center line of the barrel slightly below the target. You can see this clearly on revolvers and not so clearly on autos as the barrel on auto's already has a slight down angle to it when the gun is level.
If you want to see the full effect in action take a .44 mag and load it with a 300 gr bullet at about 800 fps and a 185 gr at 1600 fps and use the same sight setting at 25 yds. The 300 gr bullet will hit about a foot higher than the 185.
 
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Just to get really nit picky, according to Newton, the muzzle begins to rise when the sear releases the hammer.
 
First, I used a poor choice of words in the title of my OP. I should have used "muzzle begins to rise" in place of "recoil starts".

That being said, the two video links I posted show that the bullet has left the barrel before the muzzle begins to rise. Both videos are of revolvers. Also, in the fluoroscope of the 1911 the barrel does not appear to have risen at that point, but difficult to tell with only one point of reference. Venado's pics he posted in the "Muzzle Flash" thread also seem to show that the barrel has not risen, and the bullet must already be gone to see that much flash. Again, tough to tell with only one point of reference. Any tests I do with different powders are meaningless because I can't take my 66 year old body out of the equation.

I'm not trying to be smart a$$, but I don't know any of you from Adam, so words without a slo-mo video to prove the veracity of those words are not going to trump the two videos I've found. I certainly have no intention of buying a book and reading about one man's theory. I cannot see any muzzle rise in those videos until well after the bullet has left the barrel, and until I do see it I won't believe it.
 
Just to get really nit picky, according to Newton, the muzzle begins to rise when the sear releases the hammer.
Click to expand...

Since you're picking nits, how does that apply if it's a hammerless ignition system? Striker, electronic or other? Then you do not always have a rotating force.

Recoil and muzzle rise are not always related. Recoil pushes straight back, opposite the direction of the bullet movement. Muzzle rise can only occur when the barrel is not rigidly fixed or allowed to move only parallel to the barrel. Mount a barrel so that it either doesn't move or only moves straight back and you have zero muzzle deflection.

I should have used "muzzle begins to rise" in place of "recoil starts".
Click to expand...

Since you clarified your question. Muzzle rise is dependent on the system used to hold the weapon. It will depend on when the recoil force is able to overcome the moment force (torque) of the resistance against gun movement. So muzzle rise can begin at any time between when the bullet begins to move and the forces of the combustion gas stop pushing the barrel rearward. With all the variables involved in firing a gun there is not a simple and straightforward answer.
 
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I've said this before but it's still true and answers the OP question:

Turn an unloaded revolver over and set on it's sights.
Notice, with the gun upside down setting on the front and rear sight, the barrel bore is pointing up and not parallel to the sights.

So...in the shooting position,with the sights level and on target, if the bullet left the barrel before recoil started, it would hit the dirt below the target.

It does not, but hits the target, proving that recoil starts at ignition with the gun in upward movement from recoil, when the bullet exits the barrel.

This is of course, the way we shoot, hand held, not clamped and unable to move. That would break the revolver frame and the reason the "Ransom Rest" is designed to re-act to recoil.

Anyone who has sighted in a revolver for 357 ammo and then shot 38s knows the 38s will hit higher on the target because of longer barrel time for the bullet during RECOIL.
 
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Kruzr said:
Proof positive..
http://www.trippresearch.com/tech/video.html

About the 4th shot of the cutaway 1911 firing shows the bullet leaving the muzzle and the slide has already started to move.
Click to expand...
Excellent video Kruzr. No doubt in my mind that the slide begins to move before the bullet exits the barrel. From the close-up of the muzzle of the semi-automatic it also appears that the muzzle does not begin to rise before the bullet is long gone as the slide appears to stay parallel to the top of the frame. The revolver picture is at such an angle that it difficult to draw a conclusion. It would be nice if the photogs would put some sort of grid behind the weapon for reference. Thanks for finding that one.
 
The gun in that video has a "comped" barrel.
FYI "comp" is short for compensation of............wait for it...


RECOIL:what:

Autos have a short front sight because the downward angle of the barrel is built into the slide/barrel interface.
Put an auto upside down on the sights and you will see the barrel bore in angled upwards also.
 
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When you jump up, the Earth has to move down proportionately. However, it is so huge, that the movements is very, very slight. If you tried to jump while on a tennis ball is space, the ball would move away at a proportionately greater acceleration than you would.
Remember, it is impossible to pull anything, you can only push.
 
I've said this before but it's still true and answers the OP question:

Turn an unloaded revolver over and set on it's sights.
Notice, with the gun upside down setting on the front and rear sight, the barrel bore is pointing up and not parallel to the sights.

So...in the shooting position,with the sights level and on target, if the bullet left the barrel before recoil started, it would hit the dirt below the target.

It does not, but hits the target, proving that recoil starts at ignition with the gun in upward movement from recoil, when the bullet exits the barrel.
Click to expand...
This.
It's just not as obvious in an auto with the low bore axis and moving slide and barrel.
Elmer Keith understood all this and he didn't need no damn video! ;)
 
Tilos said:
The gun in that video has a "comped" barrel.
FYI "comp" is short for compensation of............wait for it...


RECOIL:what:

Autos have a short front sight because the downward angle of the barrel is built into the slide/barrel interface.
Put an auto upside down on the sights and you will see the barrel bore in angled upwards also.
Click to expand...
Which video? In Kruzr's video only the first weapon, a rifle, has a comped barrel. The pistol and revolver do not. How do you know autos (I assume you mean handguns) have a downward angle of the barrel since you can't see through the slide? Even the fluoroscope picture above is not conclusive that the barrel has a downward angle. I'm not doubting that recoil begins immediately, but whether the barrel rises before or after the bullet exits is still an unknown IMHO. The video evidence I have seen so far, with both revolvers and semis, would indicate that it does not rise before the bullet exits.
 
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PO2Hammer said:
This.
It's just not as obvious in an auto with the low bore axis and moving slide and barrel.
Elmer Keith understood all this and he didn't need no damn video! ;)
Click to expand...
Sorry if I'm not willing to accept Elmer Kieth as God. He could have very well been wrong and a video would either corroborate his theories or expose them as bunk.
 
Tilos said:
I've said this before but it's still true and answers the OP question:

Turn an unloaded revolver over and set on it's sights.
Notice, with the gun upside down setting on the front and rear sight, the barrel bore is pointing up and not parallel to the sights.

So...in the shooting position,with the sights level and on target, if the bullet left the barrel before recoil started, it would hit the dirt below the target.

It does not, but hits the target, proving that recoil starts at ignition with the gun in upward movement from recoil, when the bullet exits the barrel.

This is of course, the way we shoot, hand held, not clamped and unable to move. That would break the revolver frame and the reason the "Ransom Rest" is designed to re-act to recoil.

Anyone who has sighted in a revolver for 357 ammo and then shot 38s knows the 38s will hit higher on the target because of longer barrel time for the bullet during RECOIL.
Click to expand...
I only own one revolver, a 5.5" Ruger Vaquero in 357/38 caliber. I only shoot mid-range 38 Specials thru it. I have ground the front sight down because the 38's were hitting about 4" low at 40'. To the naked eye the modified sights on the Vaquero appear parallel to the barrel and the gun shoots to POA. Maybe different things happen depending on pressures, or velocities or who knows. IMHO a blanket statement does not coincide with the evidence at hand.
 
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