EAA Witness or Elite Match Witness?

[jfh]

"...are you sure there's no possibility that you doublecharged it?"​

You're not being an ass by questioning this; a double-charged case is certainly the most-likely speculative cause.

1. I think I could have overcharged the case--but I do think that it is extremely unlikely. The rounds were produced on a auto-indexing progressive (Pro 1000), minimizing the liklihood of a double-charged case.

All the remaining rounds in the magazine were disassembled by Winchester and found to be (nominally) the 4.9-gr. 231 charge.

Keep in mind that this charge level is a (relatively-) low-pressure 10mm round. I had developed it because it was very accurate, because the brass lasted far longer than full-house rounds (which I really don't seek to shoot), because it made Major, and because it was economical to build. Of course, 9.8 grains of 231 would blow a gun, of that I have no doubt; I just think it's very unlikely that amount of powder was in the case.

2. The brass were used Starline, but carefully inspected, etc., and were (probably) used less that five times (This was ten years ago, so without digging out the file, details are hazy.)

3. This occurred about the height of the (early) questioning of Glock kaBooms--before Internet forums allowed easy and broad information exchange, so there is no documentation of a sorts available to the public.

Generally, at that time, there was ongoing discussion of the ka-Boom problem--it was being found in police 17s, with lead reloads, but those generally seemed to be the squib/bulged barrel routine. I talked to the St. Paul PD armorer about it (St. Paul was an early adopter of Glocks)--and he and I reached a (subjective) conclusion that it could well be issues of a poorly-finished barrel leading up.

That conclusion is why I recommend 500 rounds or so of barrel burnishing.

Other than it being a disagreeable incident, the only disappointing issue was Glock's non-response: After hearing the word reload, the receptionist didn't even put me through to Customer Service (although she did offer her personal 'relief' that I wasn't seriously injured). The only long-term cost was a general dislike of Glocks on my part--I sold my others (19, 17L), and settled in on 1911-type semiautos.

Enough digression--we shouldn't hi-jack this thread.

Jim H.

 

[Lucky Strike]

So you can buy jacketed bullets for reloading?....I didn't know that...like i said i'm new to this stuff.


So from what I'm gathering the lead bullets shot through a polygonal barreled gun would deposit excess lead in the barrel which would decrease the circumference/volume which would increase pressure leading to possible kabooms.

I will definitely run 500 rounds of FMJ through it before trying straight lead bullets. At that point though how do I determine if excessive leading were still an issue?

Fire a couple rounds and then field strip and check the barrel and repeat for 100 rounds? At what point could I be sure that things were generally ok?

Sorry for asking so many questions and perhaps this should be it's own thread or something but I appreciated the great info you guys are giving me

 

[sqlbullet]

To the original question...

I have both a standard Witness and an Elite Match, both in 10mm. I bought the standard Witness first since no one locally could get me a Match. Soon after I decided I should have gotten the Match, so the Witness kinda became my wife's gun.

The Match is easily worth the extra money, with a couple of understandings:

It is heavier, but not much.

It is sharper. I mean this literally. Where the Witness has lots of soft edges, the Match is sharp. I sometimes feel I would cut my hands on the slide serrations if not careful. Same for many other places on the frame.

It is (as you know) SA only. If you are going to carry it, better be comfortable with condition 1 or condition 3 (with no de-cocker I can't really recommend condition 2).

saturno_v, with regard to your feeding issues. My standard Witness had FTF's in the middle of magazines. Three things seem to have remedied this. A 22lb Wolf recoil spring, a +15% wolf mag spring, and about 500 rounds. Last trip to the range it ate 60 rounds without a single failure, so I hope my "wife's" gun is now good to go.

 

[longhorngunman]

LS, You should know that Glock recommends that you NEVER shoot straight lead bullets through their barrels. With that said many here and some people I know personally shoot lead through their Glocks all the time. The one thing to remember is that if your gonna do that you need to clean the barrels religiously, maybe 100rds between cleaning at max. If anything, if your gonna reload look into buying the the Berry's or Rainier copper coated bullets. Their just plated not FMJ but shouldn't lead the barrel no where near what the lead bullets will.YMMV

 

[NWdude83]

Limited

 

[Gunfighter123]

Virgin -- no more !!! Range report.

Hello ,
I posted about a month ago that I bought a used pair of Elite Match pistols , one in 9mm and the other in .40S&W. This past Tuesday I got to take them to the indoor range and shoot them for the first time. I AM IMPRESSED !!!! I used/use a Colt Gold Cup and then a Para-Ordnance in USPSA/IPSC shoots for almost 20 years. If only I had known/tried a EAA Witness before now!!!!
I shot about 150rds. of my handloaded .40s and only 1 box of 50 factory 9mm --- I will try to post a pic of my FIRST 10rds. thru the .40 --- it was at 15 yards and I started with the gun in hand --- used my Pro-Timer and finished the 10 shots in 5.76 .
Also the first time I reloaded .40 ---- have been shooting 10mm for years in my S&W 610 and Colt Delta Elites -------- I had two "weird" malfunctions with the .40 , about 1/2 way thru the mag -- the loaded round "jumped up" and stuck half in/out of the ejection port !!!! I got three 10mm and one .40 mag with the gun , I was too excited and having fun , so I don't know what mag both the malfunctions occured with.
Now to get a 10mm replacement brl. for the .40 and a .38 Super brl. for the 9mm and I WILL BE A HAPPY CAMPER !!!
Ps --- I have small hands and the Witness feels much better then the Para-Ords I got used to. Almost like holding a long-neck beer instead of a quart !!!


Ps --- I used a belt sander to "thin" the stock rubber grips , helped greatly.
Gunfighter123

 

[wally]

I had two "weird" malfunctions with the .40 , about 1/2 way thru the mag -- the loaded round "jumped up" and stuck half in/out of the ejection port !!!! I got three 10mm and one .40 mag with the gun , I was too excited and having fun , so I don't know what mag both the malfunctions occured with.

This is the exact issue I've had with 9mm, .40S&W, & 10mm Witness pistols. Use the search I've posted details of how I fixed my 10mm mags. Basically squeeze the mag lips together a bit and then file the sides of follower so it locks back again. PITA but made my guns reliable. Hotter loads make the problem worse, in fact it may eject loaded rounds but otherwise seem to work.

--wally.

 

[the hudge]

Warning

Don't buy anything from EAA. They are the worst company I have ever had the displeasure of dealing with. I will never spend one red cent on anything from EAA again.
If you have any problems with your gun......Good luck.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Don't buy anything from EAA. They are the worst company I have ever had the displeasure of dealing with. I will never spend one red cent on anything from EAA again.
If you have any problems with your gun......Good luck.

Well that's constructive

I guess we could all buy from that other company that sells hand fitted IPSC-ready CZ-based pistols in multiple calibers for less money than a basic 1911.

It's not like EAA being a pain in the @$$ company is news here. Unfortunately, dealing with them is the only feasible way to get these wonderful Tanfoglio firearms that sell at very modest prices. I'll put up with it.

 

[wally]

Actually if you call the lady that answers the phone is quite nice. They are very good at selling parts by phone or Internet.

Where they fall down is warranty work. You send the gun back at your expense and they won't work with you at all, made me return the entire gun when my 10mm Compact slide cracked instead of just the upper which would have cost me very little. Service was very fast, 7 days door-to-door and they threw in an extra mag for my trouble, but still ......

--wally.

 

[Lucky Strike]

thanks for all the replies....was planning on waiting till i got the economic stimulus checks in May but I just couldn't wait.....put in an order on the witness match on the way home...the lure of the gunshop between work and my house was too powerful.


was worried they wouldn't have any since I've seen people say they've had trouble finding one but the shop had 3 at one of their other locations so it's just a matter of shipping one over.

It should be here Friday....can't wait.

I recently had a 3.5 month backorder waiting period on a Taurus Tracker .22lr that never came (finally got tire of waiting and got a Single Six) so I'm happy that I won't have to wait much for the Witness

 

[sqlbullet]

A work associate has a standard Witness in 10mm that he bought the 22 kit for. He has had issues with reliable function when not using hyper velocity rounds. Sounds like the same deal as with 1911 conversions.

As a result of his experience, I am now eyeing Ruger 22/45's rather than a 22 kit for my Witness. About the same money, and I get a gun I can plink with while I let the person I am trying to convert to 10mm shoot my Match.

 

[Markbo]

After reading both of the threads here over and again, searching, researching and repeating countless times I have come to a conclusion. That conclusion is that I absolutely, positively cannot make up my mind.

So I bought this instead:

An Uberti Model P Thunderer Single Action in .44 special. Maybe when I hear in the future that EAA has even resonable customer service; read about some outSTANDing accuracy testing and that there are no cracks or broken parts (all comes back to that CS issue) I will revisit it. In the meantime all of this only served to make me want to wait longer.

I know what I want and I am not seeing it. I want a stainless semi-automatic single action pistol capable of outstanding accuracy. The ability to handle the stoutest 10mm loads without fear of breaking the damn thing with the ability to mount an optical sight. High capacity is a non-issue to me. I'd also like to not have to spend $1200 to have it.

I am not getting any warm fuzzies that any of these are the right choice. I'll keep my eyes open though... thanks for all the input!

Mark

 

[longhorngunman]

Well, the overall positive experience of most of the Match owners on this board was enough to convince me. I put in an order for a 10mm version with my gunshop this weekend! I hope I don't have to wait for months to get it. Oh well, that will give me time to save up for the EAA mag special and Wolf springs for the mag and gun for now.

 

[ChrisMG]

There is a special going on EAA magazines right now?

 

[longhorngunman]

Not really, just their three mags for $75 deal, which at still $25 a mag ain't all that. Sorry to get your hopes up. I'm gonna check with CDNN and see if they ain't cheaper that way. BTW anybody got one of EAA's calender's?

 

[Lucky Strike]

Well i should be picking up my Match .45 today after work....was supposed to get it on Friday and had a range trip all planned on Saturday to break it in. They didn't send it out soon enough so I gotta wait till today.

It's going to make the next 7 hours go by VERY slowly

 

[wally]

You can usually get EAA Witness Mags for $20 each from shop.reedsammo.com.

Be aware you will probably have to run a large file over the top of the baseplate to get it to lock in your Match. The standard guns have a gap between the bottom of the frame and the magazine baseplate that is missing on the match so the baseplates need to be fit on the spare mags you buy either from EAA or Reed's (I've got most of my mags from Reed's but for the 9mm and .40S&W only EAA seems to have the ones with the spacers at present).

The Mec-Gars for the Witness work every bit as good and are about $19 from CDNN as long as you don't plan on adding a Hennings +2 extended base.

--wally.

 

[longhorngunman]

Thanks for the info Wally. Who's got the best deal on the Wolff upgrade springs? Midway, Brownells?

 

[sqlbullet]

longhorngunman

You may want to check gunbroker.com. I had three different shops in my market strike out on getting me a match. I found one on gunbroker and had it a few days later. discountgundealer is who I bought mine from and a quick search shows he has a 10mm Match in stock now.

 

[neviander]

I just about made my own thread titled the same thing, yay for search...anyhoo. I've been chomping at the bit waiting for my "stimulus" check to arrive so I could place an order for the Witness Elite Match; looks like all of my other reading is accurate concerning the quality of the EM... 'ist vedy good, ja?'

It is (as you know) SA only. If you are going to carry it, better be comfortable with condition 1 or condition 3 (with no de-cocker I can't really recommend condition 2).

Somebody fill me in on what all of the "conditions" are? I'm not quite sure I would wanna carry all day cocked and locked. I was planning on just keeping a round chambered and if pulling it in defense was ever necessary, then manually pulling the hammer back...thoughts?

 

[TurboFC3S]

I have a standard Witness Compact in 10mm and an Elite Match 45. I haven't had a single problem with either gun. The 10mm Witness just runs and runs ... the Match 45 is a sweet shooting gun, probably the best available at it's price point. I bought 3 extra mags for each from Reeds, and have had no problems with them either.

BTW, I posted a nice reloading recipe for the Match 45 in the reloading section.