Explain "green bullets" please.

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rocinante

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I was watching a Modern Marvels on the History Channel about bullets. They were discussing the Army developing bullets made out of tungsten and nylon instead of lead with copper jackets. Lead being environmental evil and all. They emphasized they were not giving up on effectiveness either. Seems it would be tough creating the weight and impact deformations of lead but hey this is the twenty first century so I guess it is possible.

Anybody have links, experience, opinions about green bullets?
 
Just google it and you will find more than you want to read about it. There is a company called Metalstorm, that you may want to look at. they have weapons systems that you will think are in a movie about the future, electronic no recoil handguns that fire several rounds at a time andn are Jam proof, unbelieveable stuff, have fun.
 
I bought some old surplus ammo at a gunshow

When I opened the packages, some of them had green bullets. What's that? Not the question? Oh well, nevermind...
 
I know about Metalstorm just wondering if green bullets are something I should look forward to or not. Lead has done the trick for centuries and would hate to think something politically correct but inferior and probably EXPENSIVE is the future.

I will google just thought this would be a good discussion.
 
Take a look at who is promoting the use of "green" ammo. Then examine who would benefit financially from a shift to "green" ammo. Follow the thread from the civilian world to the political world and ID who politically is associated with those who benefit financially. As a final step figure out where the incremental metal will be mined and in what countries those mines exist. Put it all in a nice neat package and try to get someone in the media interest. Fat chance anything will appear in the media. "Green" <insert topic of choice> is merely another means of legal corruption and government/corporate collusion.
 
lead density 11.35 g/cc, melting point 660.65 Kelvin
tungsten density 19.3 g/cc, melting point 3680 Kelvin

Tungsten bullets are heavier than lead bullets of the same caliber.

I'd bet on better performance from a tungsten bullet, given the appropriate load. But don't count on molding your own. ;)

Expensive? Very likely.
 
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You need only use the search function to find previous discussions of lead free bullets and ammunition, their environmental role and that of lead containing ammuntion, their role in limiting lead exposure for shooters, and their performance.

Where environmental pH conditions are low lead can leach into groundwater, with poor ventilation lead can represent an exposure hazard on indoor ranges. Using good management practices, which can include replacing lead with so called "green" ammo, can help both indoor and outdoor ranges operate more safely.

Check the past discussions on lead and green ammo for more detailed information.
 
The individuals in the Federal government making these decisions don't give a flip about the environment. Unless it gives them more money and power. You're talking about the same government that deep-sixed ships laden with toxic chemicals, and hoped no one would find out. You're talking about the same people who dumped millions of gallons of Agent Orange on Viet Nam, and is still using depleted uranium rounds today. Both have a horribly long persistence, and both have ghastly teratogenic effects.

They're pumping dangerous pollutants into the air by having to melt tungsten, thereby counteracting the pollution they're preventing by not using lead. As Waitone said: follow the money.

-Sans Authoritas
 
just where the he?? do the environuts think the lead came from?
outer space? it comes out of the ground!
geeeeee.
 
My wedding ring is tungsten, and it cost about 200 bucks. You think ammo is expensive now? :D
 
Waltone is this a trail marker.

As the United States lacks tungsten reserves, it is obliged to purchase the metal from China.

Paragon I had no idea tungsten was that expensive. Is this another crafty attack on ammo?

Googling is an eye opener.
 
Another problem is that solid tungsten ammunition is illegal for non-government/non-LEO in all handgun calibers as well as .223, 7.62x39mm, and .308, because it is classified as "armor piercing."

I believe sintered powder tungsten bullets are OK, but they do lose density due to the porosity and AFAIK are probably no denser than lead bullets.

FWIW, gold would make excellent handgun bullets (it's half again as dense as lead, and very soft and malleable), and jacketed gold bullets would be great rifle rounds (you could make a 100+ grain gold-core .223 bullet that was the same size and shape as a 69-grain, would feed through any magazine and would have an excellent ballistic coefficient). They'd be a little expensive, though...
 
"green" bullets are basically rounds that contain no or velly little murcury and lead. mostly for use in indoor ranges. they have murcury free primers and bullets made of pure copper or jacketed bullets that use some other metal instead of a lead core.

what about making bullets out of pure tin?

some lead alloys used for bullet casting has tin added to increase its hardness. the standard ratio (i think) is about 89% lead, 10% tin and trace ammounts of antimony are used. although these ratios are varied depending on the type of alloy.

a bullet made of pure tin would weight less, but it would penetrate its target like a FMJ.
 
Regardless of the technical merits of tungsten as a projectile the issue boils down to cost, restricted supply, and coercion against the shooting community. "But it is only for the military" Yeah, right. You can bet the rent money of follow up efforts to shift the "sports" shooters over the new and green ammo. We've seen it many time over.
 
Is this another crafty attack on ammo?
Absolutely. I spoke with a Ph.D. in chemistry today, one who is also a J.D. He has practiced patent law for many years. His take is that the amount of lead introduced into the environment by hunting ammunition is pitiably small, and that the whole "green" ammo thing is more about gun control than environmental protection. Lead control at ranges, where there is significant accumulation is a concern, but not lead shot or hunting bullets.
 
rocinante, I can only state how much my ring cost. It's also supposed to be so hard that only a diamond can scratch it. I doubt they'd use something as expensive to manufacture as this must be. My post was (partially) a joke.
 
They were discussing the Army developing bullets made out of tungsten and nylon instead of lead with copper jackets.
Tungsten is proving to be anything but "green". Several compounds linked to it may be far more dangerous in lower concentrations and more active in the environment than lead. They may be hazardous and responsible for cancers such as leukemia. However it has not been studied that much in its various compounds, and those which it breaks down into in the environment. So knowledge on those things is still a work in progress.
It may however turn out to be far more toxic than lead in the environment.

They emphasized they were not giving up on effectiveness either. Seems it would be tough creating the weight and impact deformations of lead but hey this is the twenty first century so I guess it is possible.

This is the military remember. They do not allow expanding projectiles. So deformation is not as important. If the round is designed with fracture points it can yaw and fragment in tissue as the SS109 currently does.
For civilian purposes though it would at best be similar to a FMJ (with higher ricochet risk due to hardness.) Tungsten usualy costs from 8-12x more than lead per pound and is a much less abundant ore, so it is definately only suitable for special purposes, like when high penetration is necessary.
So a plinking ammo or self defense ammo it is definately not.
Further tungsten can cost even more in a finished product because shaping tungsten is very hard on tools since it is one of the hardest materials. So the cost of finished products made of tungsten can greatly exceed the price of raw tungsten.
It is also about 1.7x heavier than lead, so the same weight tungsten makes fewer bullets with a higher BC. Which means a bullet of similar size would actualy cost around 20x what a lead bullet does in material alone, and several times more to shape it into a bullet. Lead is very soft and cheap to mold, causing almost no wear on the machinery that does it. Tungsten however causes significant wear on the tools that shape and work with it, and they require a lot more maintainence which must also be passed on to the consumer.


The same thing would work with iron and nylon to make cheap bullets even if they had a poor BC due to low density. For practice and plinking they could be very helpful. Scrap iron is far cheaper than lead. However they are currently banned for most civilian use because they qualify as armor piercing handgun rounds under federal law if made out of iron/steel or tungsten. Also if not made to high standards with a thick uniform coating of nylon the rifling could touch the very hard metal and greatly increase barrel wear, especialy since something like tungsten is harder than the steel of the barrel.


So all around, it is unlikely you will see many of such rounds in the future. They will definately not be replacing lead except in special uses where the significantly higher cost and special properties of tungsten is desired.
 
You know, if we made our bullets out of gold not only would they work about as well as lead but people would be very encouraged to keep the range clean, too.

That said, what caliber for tungsten bullets?
 
icebones, Winchester's Super Clean NT uses a tin bullet with a copper jacket (and a non-toxic primer).

SBR Greenmatch uses a frangible copper/tin bullet (and a non-toxic primer).

I haven't tried the Winchesters yet, but I have tried the SBR's and they worked just fine in my P99.
 
Green bullets?

Wasn't that what Barney Fife was issued?

Must have been pretty expensive too, since he was only given one and had to keep it in his pocket.

:)
 
I have green magic marker, I can make some for anyone here who wants some "Green Bullets". I can make em cheap too, only double what a box of hydrashocks cost.
 
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