Factory Crimp Die vs. Bullet Seat & Crimp Die

[Foto Joe]

Hope I don't get yelled at for being on the wrong forum but here goes.

I've been loading 45LC with about 35gr 3f Goex and a .454 RB using a Lee Anniversary loader and a 4 die 45LC set. The fourth die is a "Factory Crimp Die". I have been using it on the RB simply because I don't want the little buggers falling out at an in-opportune moment shall we say. Now....

I'm getting ready to order a .38 S&W 3 die set to load for an 1895 H&R that belonged to my grandfather that I don't want to use smokeless in. The 3 die set of course doesn't have the aforementioned Factory Crimp Die and I don't see one listed anywhere.

Since it isn't in the set and I can't find one, how important is it in the scheme of things. I'll be loading approximately 145gr lead bullets in these and I have no idea what the BP charge will be but it's gotta be small given the size of the brass.

Gentlemen I would like your opinions and or advice.

Thanks,

 

[zxcvbob]

I don't like the FC dies, although I reluctantly use one on some .357 Magnum loads where the .358 deep-seated bullets bulge the brass. But even then I don't use it to crimp, just to resize the finished rounds.

You are fine with it or without it. The bullet seating die crimps just fine, but it's a little harder to set it up to both seat and crimp until you get used to it. I "grew up" loading on a single stage press, that's probably why I don't like extra steps.

BTW, do you have 9mm and .38 Special dies already? I *think* you can reload .38 S&W using 9mm dies with a .38 Special shellholder. (I'm about to find out)

 

[Bluehawk]

Would this H&R happen to be an "American Dbl. Action" model or is it a top break?

 

[Hellgate]

I use the FC die as the final stage to insure proper chambering . It sizes the whole cartridge to eliminate case bulges that could jam a tight chambered rifle or not fit into a tight revolver chamber.

 

[wittzo]

I just have the 3 die set in .45 Colt; the bullet seat/roll crimp die works for me, I don't know what I'm missing.

 

[MCgunner]

Roll crimp can cause problems with brass bulging as zxcvbob alludes to. Just takes a bit less crimp to keep from bulging the brass with those heavy bullets. That's not necessarily a good thing in .357 considering a good crimp keeps the bullet pulling under recoil down, the main reason to crimp tightly in heavy calibers. I have even worse problems with this, though, in .38 special, but fortunately, don't need the heavy crimp so bad.

I like the factory crimp die in the autoloading rifle calibers I use one with. I haven't tried one in an revolver caliber, though, just make due with the roll crimp. Yeah, die adjustment is critical as over-crimping can cause the brass bulging. I really haven't had this problem with .45 Colt, though, mainly in heavy bullet .38 special loads.

 

[ClemBert]

Foto Joe,

I have the same exact setup that you have for your 45 Colts. For the most part I use the FC die to put the oh-so-lightest crimp on my 45 Colt loads. Specifically, where I have heavy compression of powder (40 grains FFFg) the crimp is necessary to prevent bullet creep. For 35 grain loads the light crimp probably isn't necessary. I would think that with your .38 S&W loads a crimp isn't necessary as long as you aren't doing heavy compression of the powder or you have a tight fitting bullet. YMMV.

 

[Foto Joe]

Clembert,

Exactly how in the "H" do you manage to cram 40gr FFFg into a 45LC brass??? I'm assuming that you use a drop tube set-up but still I'd be a little spooky about compressing it down hard enough to seat a bullet.

As far as the 38 S&W's are concerned I think you right on the money. With the small powder charge vs. the relatively heavy 140-145 gr bullet, creep shouldn't be a problem.

Thanks for the help and suggestions are still welcome.

Ignorance is curable, stupidity is not.

 

[ClemBert]

The 45 Colt was meant to hold 40 grains of BP. There are some slight differences in the the old versus the new brass used for 45 Colt. Specifically, the old time 45 brass had slightly more room in it but the brass was a bit more fragile. Using a drop tube and a compression plug 40 grains of 3Fg can be put in your modern day 45 Colt brass without a problem. Yes, there is a bit of compression done but that is why you use a compression plug.



45 Colt Compression Plug for your Lee Die

 

[ClemBert]

You really will want to use a compression plug. Using the bullet to compress 40 grains of 3Fg isn't a good idea. There is too much opportunity to deform the bullet if you do. Use a compression plug.

A drop tube is easily made using some copper tubing and a couple of copper fittings. If you select the right copper fittings then the drop tube will fit perfectly in your Lee powder charging die and the funnel they supply will fit on top of your drop tube. Basically, you need a copper fitting for the bottom and for the top of the drop tube. Go to ACE hardware and pick up a piece of copper tubing and the appropriate sized fittings for either end.

 

[Foto Joe]

Yes, there is a bit of compression done but that is why you use a compression plug.

Jeez you guys are always trying to cost me more money I swear!!! Heck of a drop tube you've got there, one of these days I'll have to give that a shot, so to speak.

Anybody ever chronograph a 45LC with various BP loads bullets-balls etc.?

I'll be that 40gr FFFg will push a .454 out the tube at a significant speed....

 

[ClemBert]

The compression plug is $1.99 while the drop tube costs $6 to make. You are way too far into it to start scrimping now!

p.s. I use .452 250 grain RNFP bullets.

 

[Foto Joe]

The compression plug is $1.99 while the drop tube costs $6 to make. You are way too far into it to start scrimping now!

p.s. I use .452 250 grain RNFP bullets.

Allright, remember you are talking to a CB person. What does RNFP mean. I can figure out RN=Round Nose but what is FP??

Also, what benefit do I get from using 40gr vs. 35gr other than getting lower on powder faster??

Also, Also...since you obviously have experience far exceeding my own in this realm answer me this. Goex vs. Swiss?? I've been told that Swiss is "slightly" cleaner although at a cost as well as Swiss is cooler than Goex. Your opinion on this as well as others opinions on this would be appreciated.

And for those who have not taken the plunge and started loading BP cartridges yet, let this be a warning to you. Just like Lay's potatoe chips, you can't have just one!!!

 

[Hellgate]

RNFP= Round Nose Flat Point

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi Foto Joe,


Ye'd asked -

Anybody ever chronograph a 45LC with various BP loads bullets-balls etc.?

Yes...lots of people have...but, where are they when you need 'em?


I did a few months ago...


From my Notes -

All Chronograph readings obtained @ 10 Yards.


35 Grains 'GOEX' 3F BP, .040 home made Lube Wafer, 230 Grain 'SAECO' Wadcutter:


Colt New Service Snubby, 2-1/4 Inch Barrel - 656 FPS

S&W 2nd Model Hand Ejector ( originally .455, but converted to .45 Colt ) 6 Inch Barrel - 859 FPS

Repop Colt Bisley, SAA, 7-1/2 Inch Barrel, 893 FPS




I also did a bunch of Double-Ball over BP, but, I can not find my Notes on that.



Also did some with '777' ( can supply Notes if interested )

Also did dome 'Blackthorn' ( I think it was, ditto if interested ).

Also did some using 10 Grains of 'Unique', which gave 1085 outta the Bisley, and, 865 outta the Snubby, but, when I did my 'Range Report' here, several people scolded me kinda sternly, for that being on the whole buncha 'warm' side.


So, do not emulate that one! Too stout unless a 'Ruger'! Or unless you are Elmer Keith!! Or both!


Lol...

 

[Pulp]

There are actually two types of FC dies for .45 Colt. One is basically a resizing die that smooths out any bulges. The other has a collet type thing that squeezes a crimp into the brass. It will exert enough force to crimp even if you load above or below the crimp ring on the bullet.

I have the collet type for .44-40 and the resizing type for .45 Colt. Neither is technically necessary if you have your seating/crimp die properly adjusted.

 

[ClemBert]

Also, what benefit do I get from using 40gr vs. 35gr other than getting lower on powder faster??

And for those who have not taken the plunge and started loading BP cartridges yet, let this be a warning to you. Just like Lay's potatoe chips, you can't have just one!!!

The original 45 Colt started out with a 40 grain load. Later it became a 35 grain load then a 28 grain load. So with the 28-40 grain range you have quite a few combinations to try out. I would say that 35 grain loads are my favorite. However, I load up and shoot 40 grain loads on occasion just to make more boom-n-smoke. You know how it is: sometimes you feel like a nut...sometimes you don't. I can't say that much is to be gained with the 40 grain load except I notice that the grin on my face is much bigger.

So like Foto Joe says: reloading is like potato chips. Once you purchase the reloading equipment you start buying all the dies for other cartridges. I bought the 45 Colt dies then the next thing I knew I had 40 S&W, 460 S&W, and 50 AE dies too.

Also did some using 10 Grains of 'Unique', which gave 1085 outta the Bisley, and, 865 outta the Snubby, but, when I did my 'Range Report' here, several people scolded me kinda sternly, for that being on the whole buncha 'warm' side.

So, do not emulate that one! Too stout unless a 'Ruger'! Or unless you are Elmer Keith!! Or both!

Yeah, I also load 45 Colt with smokeless powder but I do that for my Taurus Judge. I use 8 grains of Unique and thats a nice load. I'm not a madman like Oyeboten is.

 

[Foto Joe]

Jeez, this thread has taken on a life of its own hasn't it?

Sort of on the same subject something I forgot to inquire about. What size bullets does 38 S&W use?? About the only caliber I'm familiar with is 45LC and 12 gauge shotguns. I've got a funny feeling that they ARE NOT .38 It's my understanding (and I could be wrong) that 38 SPC, 38, 357 and 9mm are all actually slightly different diameters. True/False?

Thanks,

 

[Oyeboten]

Everything has a Life-of-it's-Own..! Keeping things on the Leash is the tough part!


.38 S&W was usually around .361 if memory serve.

.38 Colt New Police, somwhat smaller...like .358-ish.

9mm, .356 if Lead.


I do not re-size my .45 Colt Cases, since I have to insert chubbier than usual ( as say, .454 ) Bullets into them for the older Revolver(s), and the dies I have assume a Modern Revolver ( as say .452).

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi ClemBert,


Ye'd mentioned -

Yeah, I also load 45 Colt with smokeless powder but I do that for my Taurus Judge. I use 8 grains of Unique and thats a nice load. I'm not a madman like Oyeboten is.

I did not know I was being a Madman!


I just looked up a same Bullet Weight in my old 1951 'Lyman' Hand Book, and it gave a spread of like 7 to 10.7 Grains of 'Unique', so, figuring to be conservative, I settled on the '10' as a nice place to start, figuring I could always work 'up' a little if I wanted.


I felt completely happy with the Loading, especially with the Snubby...but it was very nice out of the Bisely also.

Nice recoil, nice report, very satisfying!

Later, I was informed that 'Unique' had changed their formula a little at some point, and was stouter now than it had been when my Lyman Hand book was printed.

So, without meaning to have done so, I was shooting some pretty Healthy Loads there.


Oh well, Live and Learn..!


I will try some "8.2" Grains sometime, but, I gotta say, after shooting the '10' Grain loading, thinking about anything less does seem like kind of a let down...


...sigh...

 

[Foto Joe]

.38 S&W was usually around .361 if memory serve.

.38 Colt New Police, somwhat smaller...like .358-ish.

I was cruising Midway USA today at work (yes I was on an official break as provided by my employer) and hit the reloading section looking for bullets etc. They list the 38 S&W as .359 but of course they don't have any. At least it's a starting point.

Now onto one of my probably less than intelligent questions but hey, if ya don't ask ya can't learn now can ya?

The "Brass" that I'm planning on reloading is actually not brass. From the looks of it, it's possibly nickle, definitely not aluminum nor steel. The original box is a Winchester Super-X Cartridge Box from who knows when. I'm assuming that not being aluminum these would be reloadable?? If not let me know so I can order unprimed brass from TOTW or Midway

 

[arcticap]

Nickel cases are plated brass and not pure nickel.

 

[Oyeboten]

It can be nice to have Nickel Plated Cases, and, plain Brass Cases as well.

'Gunbroker' is a good source of small lots of primed or unprimed or once-fired Brass for re-loading.


Tuns of .38 S&W Cases there for very easy going prices.


With pure soft Lead, slightly undersized Bullets would likely still behave well enough in the .38 S&W, as with most other lower pressure kinds of rounds.

148 or 158 Grain, .358 Hollow Base Wadcutters are said to behave well in .38 S&W also.