redbullitt
Member
*Thoracic* cavity.
Fahrenheit .451 - Now Available
- Thread starter Matthew Courtney
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mgregg85
Member
Matthew Courtney, I will repeat my request, lets see a video of you or someone else in your company firing this loading over a chronograph. Or send just 25 rounds to the guys at GunBlast.com and let them test it if they are willing. They maintain a rather popular website with tons of reviews of various products, I think they would make an excellent, unbiased test bed for this product of yours.
Rampant_Colt
Member
Matthew Courtney
Member
I have contacted gunblast.com about testing our ammo. If they will test it and promptly publish the results, I'll get some to them.
Matthew Courtney
Member
I just learned that Barnes has ceased production of the XPB bullet and replaced it with the TAC-XP. The TAC-XP supposedly has a more aggressive hollow point cavity. I don't know if this bullet will feed reliably at the increased slide velocities, or if terminal ballistics will be similar. Seven months of work might have just gone down the drain.
JImbothefiveth
Member
If you're not going to do a video test, could you at least give the recoil in foot-pounds of the cartridge when fired from a specific gun weight?
Matthew Courtney
Member
Not until you give me the weight of the gun for which you want it calculated, and not unless I know the muzzle velocity of a bullet fired from said gun. What is this, a math test?
I don't believe that energy calculations for recoil in semi autos are particularly valid because the recoil spring affects the rate at which the energy is transferred to the grip, which is where the recoil is felt.
In any case, the recoil momentum equals the bullet momentum plus the momentum of the escaping gases. Divide the mass of the gun into the recoil momentum to get the recoil velocity.
see: http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/August01.htm
I don't believe that energy calculations for recoil in semi autos are particularly valid because the recoil spring affects the rate at which the energy is transferred to the grip, which is where the recoil is felt.
In any case, the recoil momentum equals the bullet momentum plus the momentum of the escaping gases. Divide the mass of the gun into the recoil momentum to get the recoil velocity.
see: http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/August01.htm
Eightball
Member
Well, if you won't post pictures/video of your mystical load over a chronograph, do you at least have pictures of your testing and production facility and tools to share with us? Pictures of the gelatin, perhaps? Pictures of your testbed firearms? You can post such things and black out the "contract-violating" parts that we "can't" see, such as the "unobtanium" powder or load data, but I'm curious to see what has to be a completely and totally state-of-the-art production and testing facility for such a powerhouse round. That, and I'm curious what tooling and machinery you are using to produce your special barrels needed to handle the obscene amounts of pressure--at the very least, what material are you using, or is it some incredible alloy?
And, as for the weight of the gun, let's say, oh, 31 ounces--a lightweight 5" 1911. As for needing the muzzle-velocity of the firearm--well, your testing and obviously precisely calibrated chronograph should give you the roughly "average" data you need (especially for something as typical as a 5" 1911), so I wouldn't expect you'd need me to supply such data for you.
And, as for the weight of the gun, let's say, oh, 31 ounces--a lightweight 5" 1911. As for needing the muzzle-velocity of the firearm--well, your testing and obviously precisely calibrated chronograph should give you the roughly "average" data you need (especially for something as typical as a 5" 1911), so I wouldn't expect you'd need me to supply such data for you.
First, if I want AK power in a handgun, I break out the CZ-52. 
But anyway, how is it a good idea to ruin a perfectly good .45 acp carry gun by making it ridiculously uncontrollable? How fast could you make follow-up shots with this thing? Multiple rounds increase the chance of stopping the BG, not some one-shot-per-four-seconds hand cannon. What've you done, filled a .45 super with C4
? Is that your super-proprietary load? If so, maybe this round was designed with the Brady mentality in mind: the bad guy'll more likely take it from you, and blow off his own hand, possibly end up like Benicio Del Toro in "Sin City." Let's see some pics, at least!
BTW, don't know where you buy ammo, but 100 for $225 is goddamn ridiculous. Might've been smarter to just adapt the 1911 for 7.62x39mm if you want real AK power, and then it'd be cheap to feed too. (and it'd sell itself silly)
Send a couple rounds to Old Painless at www.theboxotruth.com
But anyway, how is it a good idea to ruin a perfectly good .45 acp carry gun by making it ridiculously uncontrollable? How fast could you make follow-up shots with this thing? Multiple rounds increase the chance of stopping the BG, not some one-shot-per-four-seconds hand cannon. What've you done, filled a .45 super with C4
? Is that your super-proprietary load? If so, maybe this round was designed with the Brady mentality in mind: the bad guy'll more likely take it from you, and blow off his own hand, possibly end up like Benicio Del Toro in "Sin City." Let's see some pics, at least!BTW, don't know where you buy ammo, but 100 for $225 is goddamn ridiculous. Might've been smarter to just adapt the 1911 for 7.62x39mm if you want real AK power, and then it'd be cheap to feed too. (and it'd sell itself silly)
Send a couple rounds to Old Painless at www.theboxotruth.com
Matthew Courtney
Member
Four shots in a second are easy with some practice.
Okay, so if this is true, you must have really made some breakthrough in bullet propellants. For a .45 going that fast in a normal-weight pistol to not destroy your gun, hand, hearing, the ranges' burm, etc..., It would have to be a greater innovation than smokeless powder. Can you elaborate on the principle of this stuff? How does it burn to produce that kind of pressure?
If I were you, and I wasn't lying, I'd have already sold this to DuPont or the like.
If I were you, and I wasn't lying, I'd have already sold this to DuPont or the like.
Matthew Courtney
Member
Pressures are in the low 40K range. I am using both a commercial powder and a military pull down powder that are between clays and longshot on a burn rate chart.
The key to getting our velocity is the bullet lubricant, which is applied on the bullets' surface with a series of chemical processes using things found in many homes.
The key to getting our velocity is the bullet lubricant, which is applied on the bullets' surface with a series of chemical processes using things found in many homes.
JImbothefiveth
Member
I'm sorry if I came off the wrong way, I'm not bashing your product.
Alright, how about this, you measure what the recoil is in foot-pounds for your standard load, fired from one of your test guns. Please tell me the weight of the test gun, and what recoil springs it uses.
I like to know this stuff before buying a gun in a high-recoiling cartridge, to get an estimate of whether or not it would be enough recoil to make shooting it too painful.
I meant to post this earlier, but why don't you market this to the hand-cannon crowd first (ya know, Desert Eagle, Automag, S&W 500 owners). They will test the hell outta it, and maybe it'll make it's way to SD once it's proven. When you just outright state that it's the greatest CCW cartridge evah and sell it on that basis either some gullible people are gonna get hurt, or you'll get lucky and they won't have to use it.
Matthew Courtney
Member
Using a 38 ounce steel frame 1911 that gets the 160 grain bullet to 1800 fps, free recoil would be in the 11.5 to 13 fpe range, depending on which method one uses to calculate it. I will not give out the exact figure for each method of calculation because then people would reverse calculate the weight of the powder charge and try to duplicate my load without properly lubricating the bullet. Anyone who tries this is likely to injure himself.
Matthew,
I am interested to learn more. Of the product samples you have given out for testing and experimentation, have any of the individuals actually completed the tests and experiments yet? If so, is there any way that you can direct me to the results of their work, such as an experiment write-up or published results?
I am interested to learn more. Of the product samples you have given out for testing and experimentation, have any of the individuals actually completed the tests and experiments yet? If so, is there any way that you can direct me to the results of their work, such as an experiment write-up or published results?
Matthew Courtney
Member
Does anyone know if the new Barnes TAC-XP is the old XPB with new marketing, or an entirely new bullet?
Matthew Courtney
Member
Eldon,
The first bunch of samples went to folks with purchasing credentials, distributors, and dealers.
We just started shipping some to people with publishing credentials last week.
It will probably take some time before tests are published. If I can't get some more XPB bullets, the tests will be meaningless before they are published and I'll be back at square one.
The first bunch of samples went to folks with purchasing credentials, distributors, and dealers.
We just started shipping some to people with publishing credentials last week.
It will probably take some time before tests are published. If I can't get some more XPB bullets, the tests will be meaningless before they are published and I'll be back at square one.
Mr. Courtney I hate to be a naysayer, but why dodge the constant requests for pictures? Of absolutely anthing???
Any man who is claiming to have redefined the handgunning world as we now know it must certainly be able to post a few pics on the interweb. Right?
So far all we've heard are vague descriptions of a mythical product. If you want folks to take you seriously, you are going to have to do better than that.
A picture is, as they say, worth a thousand words.
Any man who is claiming to have redefined the handgunning world as we now know it must certainly be able to post a few pics on the interweb. Right?
So far all we've heard are vague descriptions of a mythical product. If you want folks to take you seriously, you are going to have to do better than that.
A picture is, as they say, worth a thousand words.
You said it, Mr. Courtney, this is the internet. In other words folks, do not believe everything you read. I see no physical proof of said cartridges existance. I see no empirical data supporting said velocity and energy claims. I see no offers to demonstrate said products capabilities. What I do see is a man peddling miracle ammunition with no verification of his claims or even of his product's existance. In the old west, Mr. Courtney, I believe you would have been called a carpetbagger.
In all honesty you are not putting on a sales promotion. A promotion requires that there be something to promote. Where is the product? In actuality you are attempting a sales pitch, and a weak one at that. No product, no data to support the product, no proof of claims, just your word. Unfortunately not good enough in this day and age, sir.
Once again, Mr. Courtney, you said it. Good day sir.
Matthew Courtney
Member
My website now has pictures of brass we destroyed in the development process, and of XPB bullets under going a step in the lubrication process.
Matthew Courtney
Member
Oh, Boge Quinn of gunblast.com says I need to give them a gun in order for them to test my ammo. Since he doesn't live in Louisiana, it's not legal for me to give him a gun. I wouldn't even if it was legal, but why sould I trust someone who tries to get me to commit a major felony?
At last the important information comes out. Yikes. I wouldn't feel good about shooting that in a gun made for a 21,000 PSI cartridge.
And according to my very basic (but reasonably accurate) homebrew internal ballistics calculator, it would be no problem at all to get a 160 gr bullet to 1800 fps, with 40,000-45,000 PSI chamber pressure, given low enough barrel friction. 7.62x39mm is 45,000 PSI, after all. And the case volume of .45 ACP is 0.109 cubic inch, compared to 0.135 cubic inch for 7.62x39mm.
He meant you'd have to send a gun to an FFL, who would transfer possession of the firearm to him, and then at the conclusion of the testing, he'd send the gun back to an FFL near you, who would transfer ownership again. That's pretty much the SOP for gun reviews.
Matthew Courtney
Member
RyanM,
I read a couple of his articles and he always refers to the gun used as "his" gun. Maybe that's just his writing style, but it caused me to be perplexed.
I don't have enough .45's to send them around the country for guys to test our ammo.
Is the pressure high enough that someone could get hurt if they put our cartridges in a older stock 1911, or in a stock glock? Yes, it is. Will the increased slide velocity wear guns out more quickly? Yes it will. The majority of .45 owners will not want my ammo, and that's fine. If I can sell a box or two to one .45 owner in a thousand over the next decade, my non-profit gun training organization will be able to continue to provide CCW and Hunter Ed classes in our area for those 10 years.
We projected that Louisiana Shooters needed to sell 80 boxes a month to pay off our debt and continue to operate for the next 2 years. After that, we would need to sell 35 boxes a month to keep operations going. We have been selling just under 80 boxes per day since we started shipping it a week ago.
Anyway, thanks for believing that what we are doing is possible, and for saying so here.
I read a couple of his articles and he always refers to the gun used as "his" gun. Maybe that's just his writing style, but it caused me to be perplexed.
I don't have enough .45's to send them around the country for guys to test our ammo.
Is the pressure high enough that someone could get hurt if they put our cartridges in a older stock 1911, or in a stock glock? Yes, it is. Will the increased slide velocity wear guns out more quickly? Yes it will. The majority of .45 owners will not want my ammo, and that's fine. If I can sell a box or two to one .45 owner in a thousand over the next decade, my non-profit gun training organization will be able to continue to provide CCW and Hunter Ed classes in our area for those 10 years.
We projected that Louisiana Shooters needed to sell 80 boxes a month to pay off our debt and continue to operate for the next 2 years. After that, we would need to sell 35 boxes a month to keep operations going. We have been selling just under 80 boxes per day since we started shipping it a week ago.
Anyway, thanks for believing that what we are doing is possible, and for saying so here.
Matthew Courtney
Member
The Fahrenheit .451 is actually substantially weaker than published load data for the .460 Rowland.
See: http://www.concealco.com/ccu_460row.html
See: http://www.concealco.com/ccu_460row.html
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