Fight or Flight and concealed carry.

[cchurchi]

Hey, it's my first post!

I've have a concealed carry permit for almost 10 years now and luckily, I've never needed it.... yet. I've often thought about how bad things would have to get before I would draw my firearm in self-defense, and because of my fear of being prosecuted for "brandishing" or somehow being sued, I've concluded that unless I'm about to be stabbed or shot and I have already unsuccessfully tried to get away, my firearm will stay in my holster.

This means that if someone else's life is in danger, I hopefully will have a cell phone handy to call the police, because I won't be getting directly involved.

Does anyone else feel like me or do other CCW holders carry for the sake of everyones defense?

 

[TexasRifleman]

First, welcome to THR!

I'd recommend you go spend some time reading through the "Strategies and Tactics" subforum here. I think you will find your answer there.

Your feelings are common for a lot of people.

The argument on whether or not you feel you should jump in the fight on behalf of someone else has been done many times.

Some interesting reading if you want to dig for it.

Now, personal feelings aside, the argument that has been made and shown to work, politically at least, is that having a population where 5-10% are armed is a deterrent against crime because the bad guy never knows if he's grabbing an armed "victim".
In that sense your concealed permit DOES help the population at large, even if you never draw your weapon.

 

[Creature]

No, I dont feel the same way you do.

I would hope that you would want to help me out if I was attacked for no reason, and I would proabably be very ticked at you for not doing so...but that is your decision and there isnt much I can do about it.

 

[granuale]

You should consider taking an advanced class on the use of deadly force. I highly recommend the Lethal Force Institue's LFI-1. It will help you go over these questions in detail and develop a well thought out and practiced response.

Your instinct to not be quick on the draw is correct. You are not the police.

 

[pax]

cchurchi ~

Good first post.

When you pull & use a gun, you are gambling literally everything you own on getting it right and being legally justified. You are gambling your job, your home, and every penny you have in the bank. You are gambling your marriage and your ability to watch your children grow up in person instead of from jail. You are gambling every friendship you've ever made, every dollar you've ever earned or will earn, and your family's future happiness. You are risking sleep disturbances, flashbacks, nightmares, impotence, anorexia, alcoholism, drug reliance, and a long and bitter lifetime of regret if you get it wrong.

To take a gamble that big, it's a good idea to be overwhelmingly certain there's no other way out.

Is the life of a stranger worth a gamble that size? Depending on your personal morals, maybe he is. But never ever ever in an ambiguous situation, especially when you didn't see the prelude and don't know the players.

pax

 

[RKBABob]

Ditto! what pax said. Its my opinion, exactly, and I couldn't have expressed it better myself.

 

[Blackbeard]

Agreed. You never know if you may be misinterpreting the actions of the other person. The "attacker" could be friends with the "victim" and they're just horsing around. I'd say if you're defending your own life you only need reasonable fear for your safety. If you're defending someone else, you need an absolute moral certainty that their life is in danger and your actions are justifiable.

 

[crankshop1000]

You have the right to defend yourself with your ccw. That could also be interpreted to include someone with you.Anything other than that better get to dialing 911.That being said, it would be pretty hard to not intervene if you really thought you were helping out an innocent victim.

 

[mljdeckard]

You are showing good thinking here, that is a couple of steps past the first idea of what 'might' happen.

It takes a wild imagination to come up with a scenario in which you are justified in pulling the gun but not firing it. Let me clarify. Don't pull it until you are SURE you are justified in firing it, ***BUT*** also understand that even in doing this, the vast majority of armed encounters are de-escalated without shooting anyone.

Absolutely carry a phone. The first one to call the police is the victim. Make sure it's you and not someone else.

There is a VERY short list of people I would pull to defend. A couple of lifelong friends and their families. I even have SIBLINGS I wouldn't jump in and defend, because they have past-life conduct which makes me wonder if the trouble I am witnessing is their own fault.

The example my CCW instructor used, (he says it's true, I have no idea, but it is to make you think,) is of a man who is leaving a bar, carrying legally, and down the block, he sees and hears a man being rough with a woman, she is struggling against him, he drags her back into an alley, where the shouting and struggling continues. The guy follows them in, looks down the alley, sees the man sitting on top of her and tearing at her clothes. He pulls out his gun and shoots the bad guy. The woman pushes off what is left of him and says something to the effect of; "What are you doing?! We were role-playing, playing a game, and you killed him!!"

If you don't absolutely KNOW what is going on when you kill someone, you are going to jail.

 

[Creature]

The example my CCW instructor used, (he says it's true, I have no idea, but it is to make you think,) is of a man who is leaving a bar, carrying legally, and down the block, he sees and hears a man being rough with a woman, she is struggling against him, he drags her back into an alley, where the shouting and struggling continues. The guy follows them in, looks down the alley, sees the man sitting on top of her and tearing at her clothes. He pulls out his gun and shoots the bad guy. The woman pushes off what is left of him and says something to the effect of; "What are you doing?! We were role-playing, playing a game, and you killed him!!"

I should have prefaced my opinion with this scenario:

A deranged knife-wielding killer is loose and targets nearby innocent bystanders with fast and furious surprise attacks.

Pull or don't pull?

http://www.1010wins.com/pages/1058584.php?contentType=4&contentId=1012840

 

[Bobo]

cchurchi,

You could easily have a situation where the bad guy looks like a plainclothes cop and the real cop looks like the bad guy. This is only one scenario in which you could easily shoot the wrong person.

If you get involved in a situation that is not PERSONALLY threatening to you or a loved one. You are taking a HUGE chance.

Some people feel morally compelled to take that chance and others don't. That is something we each must decide for ourselves, and it's something everyone should decide BEFORE they suddenly find themselves in such a situation.

Thank you for bringing the subject up - many readers here have never thought about it and have never made their decision. Hopefully, you helped save a lot of people a lot of trouble in the future.

Bobo

 

[Erik]

I for one do not care to contemplate a life so concerned with myself that I would stand by failing to act when prudence dictates for the benefit of another in dire need.

Granted my definition of "when predence dictates" is likely radically different than some of yours.

So fear not for your loved one's in the case that you're not around to save them and I am, for I will try if it is within my power and absent clear arguments against it.

 

[JerryM]

PAX makes some excellent points. It is often more complex than meets the eye.
For one thing, it is not obvious in many instances who is in the right and who is not. Before I would get involved I would have to have a high degree of confidence that I had identified the bad guy. In fact there might not be a good guy in the "fight."

Of course, there are some obvious circumstances where I would intervene. I would not stand by and see a woman or child raped or killed, but many other circumstances are not so obvious.

What about a child that is being forced into a car, and is yelling for help, and he says, "No daddy."? Should one shoot the dad if necessary to prevent the child from being taken against his will?

I always remember that I am not an "off duty" police officer, and I have neither that responsibility nor authority.

Best,
Jerry

 

[Standing Wolf]

Is the life of a stranger worth a gamble that size?

Nobody ever said doing the right thing is always easy and risk-free.

If it's clear someone's being threatened with imminent death or great bodily harm and I'm sure I can intervene on his or her behalf without throwing away my won life, I'll do the American thing and clear leather.

I did it once before. It cost me a long, long night in police custody and the gun. I still miss the gun, which happened to be the first I ever bought, and surely won't ever forget the so-called "law enforcement officers" who bullied a guy for the sake of bullying a guy they could get away with bullying.

At least I can face the man in the mirror.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Is the life of a stranger worth a gamble that size?

Go ask Kitty Genovese. Oh wait, she's dead because no one helped.
Nevermind.

Hey! Dancing with the Stars is on, I gotta run.....

 

[MinnMooney]

Pax was pretty close in explaining the pros & cons of drawing on someone who APPEARS to be ready to harm a stranger. What if they're play-acting or in the middle of a practical joke? You don't know what happened seconds or minutes before you got there.

 

[Dustinthewind]

I've debated with myself over this many of times. Certain situations seem to be cut and dried. Man walks into quickie mart and opens fire, you interviene. You come across two men holding pistols in a mexican standoff, both in street clothes and yelling at each other to drop their weapon, if you decide to get involved who do you point your gun at? One's a bad guy and the other a fellow ccw'er but how do you know which is which? I have about come to the conclusion that I will only protect myself and those known to me. If someone else is victimized then maybe they should have made the choice to arm themselves for their own self-preservation instead of relying on someone else to protect them. It's a tough call either way you look at it and I think that it depends on the situation as to weather or not one should get involved.

 

[Ed Gallop]

Things are not always as they appear. I know an undercover officer that was shot by another officer because he had pulled a gun on a bad guy and his yelling "Police Officer" could not be heard. It happens. The shooter has been hauted by the unforgetable mistake and claims he wish he had been shot instead because some things are worse than death. Guess it would depend on the shooter's conscious.

The mind set of doing the "American thing and clear leather" is very dangerous if you don't know the parties involved or the situation. People too quick to clear leather scares the bejesus out of me. I may even appear to be a bully cop by arresting the shooter if probable cause exist. I doubt the shooter would be treated badly if the shooting was clearly justified and his/her attitude was not hostile toward the police. I would hope the American way would involve prudent thinking and careful decisions making before shooting. Ed.

 

[ScottE]

I'm a fairly big guy (6' 7" 285lbs.) and don't look like I would be carring around lots of cash, so being attacked by street thugs is not my biggest fear.

The reason I applied for my CCW was because a couple years ago I saw a guy trying to break into my next door neignbors house. I knew my next door neighbor was home alone and under strict orders from her doctor to stay in bed due to pregnancy complications. The bad guy was beating on the door trying to get in while I was on the phone with police. The police operator instructed me to keep out of sight of the BG, and said they had officers near. The guy finally left and the police grabbed him a block away. Had the BG guy gotten in, things could have been much worse.

I felt that had I approached this guy to keep him out of the house, I should be armed (concealed), but could also have been arrested if the situation came down to me needing to use my weapon without having a CCW.

I feel it's our duty to help where we can, and if a gun is needed to save anothers life, so be it.

Scott

 

[Sage of Seattle]

For good or for ill, here's my take on it.

 

[Neophyte1]

Good Post

Sage of Seattle: Sir; good post. Life is about living, enjoying, learning, and believing in values.
Many that CC or carry, do so without speaking out. Many go about there particular life without neighbors or friends knowing that this friend or neighbor has taken the time, invested, and thought about his, hers, theirs, them, those, positions.
In a time of need, what would you do? Each has a morale 'judge'.
Beware of your thoughtless actions,
beware of the sleepless nights,
beware of the pain and anguish,
beware of the "12" [jurist]

two Levels of protection are offered to each of us. Our Morale value and the Law.
You will be the "judge"; the jury will decide

 

[Creature]

Thanks for your thought, Sage_of_Seattle. Very pointed and heart-felt.

What if they're play-acting or in the middle of a practical joke?

Then shame on them for getting whacked by a good samaritan for it. The jury should give the good samaritan an apology for wasting his or her time in court.

To all of you who are more concerned with your "things"...certainly nothing I own is worth the life of the person standing next to me. If you count yourself among those who have things that are worth more than my life or the life of my family, you are hearby absolved of ever feeling guilty for not helping me or my family out of a life or death situation

 

[esq_stu]

A lot to think about, but . . .

I decided at some point that my life and my family's lives are worth it. Then I decided to carry.

I'm not sure I am willing to watch my whole life pass before my eyes before I draw and shoot. Now that I decided to carry, I focus on someone else's means, proximity, and clear intent to kill me or a loved one. If I can get rid of any one of those three by avoidance or escape, I don't need lethal force.

I think about that many times a day - can I avoid or escape? When I can't I want to have and be willing to use the third option.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

cchurchi, since you don't say where you are from I don't know what the laws are where you live, but a lot of states are now passing legistration that allows their citizens to defends themselves, their families, and property without fear of proscution. That is true here in Alabama. You now longer have to retreat to the far reaches of your home or runaway from a knife welding drug addict, all you have to be is afraid for you life, your family member's life, friend's life, etc.

The decision to to pull your weapon is an individual one, but like I used to tell my students when I was tesching firearms classes if you ever pull your piece only do so with the INTENT TO US IT!

Buel

 

[Sage of Seattle]

Neophyte and Creature, thank you, sincerely.