Find the holes

[ptmmatssc]

That's right , find the holes in this story . I particularly like the 50 cal comment. And $250000 for 42 guns? Man , my collection has to be worth a half mil at least

http://www.douglasdispatch.com/articles/2007/12/28/news/doc47755e372d112022103030.txt

PHOENIX (AP) - Spread across a conference table at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives in Phoenix are enough weapons to equip several car loads of drug runners.

Agents said Thursday they found the 42 weapons in a storage locker about 10 days ago. The guns were worth $250,000 in all: Belgian-made ``FN’’ handguns, semiautomatic AK rifles and other pistols. They also found four olive boxes loaded with 50-caliber bullets - ammunition that’s big enough to take out an airplane.

``These are, quite frankly, weapons of war,’’ ATF special agent Tom Mangan said as he picked up an assault rifle and examined it.

``The type of fire power you’re seeing here is on the increase,’’ he said. ``You’re seeing sophisticated weapons, military weapons, assault type weapons, assault pistols, very expensive pistols.’’

ATF officials said gun runners typically gather large caches of weapons anonymously through ``straw’’ purchases. They might give someone $100 to go into a gun show or a Wal-Mart and buy a few rifles at a time. They might buy guns over the Internet.

Some of those guns end up in the hands of California gangs or with coyotes herding illegal immigrants into the U.S. But Mangan said a majority of the guns are smuggled into Mexico for use by drug dealers.
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Mangan said this year the ATF Phoenix office learned that about 300 assault-type weapons were brought south on one occasion, and another 200 assault-type weapons were smuggled on a separate occasion.

``Certainly, these narcoterrorist organizations, these drug organizations have unlimited source of income, and it’s just a matter of getting these guns,’’ Mangan said. ``And where do they get these guns? They get them here.’’

Jim Needles, an ATF agent who was recently transferred to Arizona from New York, said he was alarmed by the kind of weapons agents are finding here.

``You see a lot of firearms seized in New York, but not that sophisticated type of weapon,’’ he said. ``You don’t see AK-47s. You don’t see the 50-caliber type of weapons.’’

Raul Saavedra, deputy counsul at the Mexican Consulate in Douglas, Ariz., said he didn’t have data to back up ATF’s claim that gun-running is on the rise. But he said the Mexican government has recognized it as a huge problem.

``A lot of the drug violence comes through weapons, and those weapons are bought in the U.S.,’’ Saavedra said.

The Mexican government has called on the United States to stop the flow of guns into the country, he said, but America’s firearms laws make it hard to stop gun running.

``What’s been useful is there has been a lot of cooperation’’ between the countries to stem the gun trade, Saavedra said.

``If weapons are seized in Mexico, they pass that information to U.S. authorities, and they can track that number to where it was bought, and they can at least confirm if the sale was done legally,’’ he added.

The weapons recently seized by the ATF are among 111 guns the Phoenix office collected this month. Mangan wouldn’t provide details about where they were found and where they were headed. The ATF is still investigating the incident, he said.

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

They might give someone $100 to go into a gun show or a Wal-Mart and buy a few rifles at a time.

Sounds like my type of gun show or WalMart. $100? A FEW rifles?

I can hardly remember the last time I saw a rifle under $100, anywhere. Well, OK, Marlin Glenfield autos were $39.95 at KMart, but that was long ago, in a galaxy far away.

 

[Roswell 1847]

Remember those weapons and ammo were headed south. Drug cartels pay top dollar, they can afford to since they charge top dollar for their product.
In fact its likely no money changed hands, the barter system is alive and well in Gangland.
And the Fifty caliber has taken out everything up to Mig 19 fighters and would still be highly effective against Narcotics survelance aircraft.
Barrett even designed an over the shoulder version of his semi auto .50 for engaging Soviet Helicopters.
You can figure that the end users weren't interested in long range match shooting, more like shooting through the passenger compartment of el Jeffe's armored limo or busting a low flying plane or chopper getting too close to the patch.
Flexible vehicle mounts for Barretts and knock offs have shown up on "Technicals", and more than a few M2HB have disappeared from armories over the years.

Now this

They might give someone $100 to go into a gun show or a Wal-Mart and buy a few rifles at a time. They might buy guns over the Internet.

doesn't make sense in the context of the weapons and ammo seized.
I haven't seen any AK at Walmart nor any .50 BMG.
The Pistols more than likely originated in Canada, from condemned stores refurbished by some blackmarketeers. I've seen these demilled Englis and FN manufactured Ex military and police P35 sold for 25 bucks with only a bit of TIG welding and a bit of skill needed to put them back in operating condition.
Since Canada still imports Norinco its likely any selective fire AK came in from the North as well. If the Reds could smuggle them into the US along with regular sporter versions they can certainly do so in Canada.

 

[doc2rn]

ATF officials said gun runners typically gather large caches of weapons anonymously through ``straw’’ purchases. They might give someone $100 to go into a gun show or a Wal-Mart and buy a few rifles at a time

Last time I heard you could not buy a AK at Wally World let alone a FN five seven. Tell me you are gonna gove me a $100 for an AK puchase and I am gonna laugh at you.
Ok lets do some math. 4 boxes of 50 cal $2000, 42 AK rifles= $21,000-$42,000 (gave them like new prices), Total=$23,000-$44,000. Don't know where he is from but my math is different.
Last time I checked Coyotes where not making much more than $250 a head. (lived in Cali in '95)
Gun runners buy in bulk, pay off an elected official and bring them in by container full as diplomatic cargo, avoiding inspection. 42 guns is not worth their time, seriously.

 

[bluecowdawg]

My favorite part is how they put FN in quotation marks like its extra evil or something

 

[Bezoar]

The real joke is that they think a drug cartel has to buy their guns at walmart. The federal Government says the cartels get a couple billion dollars in pure profit a year, that means they arent buying at wally world. Theyd be buying their aks, heavy machineguns, etc, from the manufacturer. OR from a friendly, underpayed guard and officer duo at a soviet supply depot who want to make sure they can feed the family. Or from those cartel friendly Federalis down Mehico way..

 

[possom813]

They might give someone $100 to go into a gun show or a Wal-Mart and buy a few rifles at a time.

I believe that comment was meant as pay someone 100 bucks to go buy the guns for whoever is paying the bills. Not to buy a few guns for a 100 bucks. It's like I used to do when I was underage, give a guy at the beer store 20 bucks to go pick up a 6 pack and he kept the change.

-John

 

[Bruce333]

My favorite part is how they put FN in quotation marks like its extra evil or something

Not evil..."sophisticated"...

 

[ptmmatssc]

And the Fifty caliber has taken out everything up to Mig 19 fighters and would still be highly effective against Narcotics survelance aircraft.

My mosins could be just as effective . Remember , aircraft are not exactly "armored". They tend to be of light and thin materials . Btw . have you tried to shoot a moving aircraft lately? It's a tad harder than one would think . Now if it was the 50 cal we had on our track vehicles , I might be persuaded a little . But a single shot /5 shot 50?

Ronnie G. Barrett, a manufacturer, said the idea of shooting down a moving plane with the rifle was ''big time ridiculous'' because a gunman would have to aim above the plane, to take account of gravity's effect on the bullet as it traveled, and then the plane would not be visible in the scope.

Other rifles could also be used against planes on the ground, Mr. Barrett said.

But a report to the Air Force in 1995 by the RAND Corporation identified .50-caliber rifles as a special hazard to ''high value'' planes at military airfields. Alan J. Vick, one of the two authors of the study, said that the possibility of using .50-caliber rifles against parked aircraft was worrisome.

''These weapons are heavy, and as a sniper weapon, using a bipod, laying down, shooting at some terrestrial target, they can be very accurate,'' Mr. Vick said. ''I can understand why people would be worried about them as a terrorism weapon.''

He and other experts, while sometimes skeptical that the gun could be used successfully against a plane in the air, said it could damage and possibly ignite a plane on the ground.

John Plaster, a retired Special Forces officer who has tutored police snipers, pointed out that such rifles were awkward to maneuver, weighing about 35 pounds.

''It's very unrealistic,'' Mr. Plaster said. ''I have never heard of a commercial plane anywhere in the world that was seriously damaged while in flight by a .50-caliber rifle, ever. It's not by any means a choice weapon.''

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9805E1DB1638F932A05752C0A9659C8B63

Here's a good of how hard it is to actually shoot an aircraft in flight .
http://publicola.mu.nu/archives/2004/05/05/50_caliber_rifle_ban_introduced_in_the_house.html

Just saying , the statement of shooting planes out of the sky is a far, far stretch .

 

[Sergeant Sabre]

They might give someone $100 to go into a gun show or a Wal-Mart and buy a few rifles at a time.

How can anybody, even a sheep, believe that "drug runners" (whoever they are) would do this? How would this scenario go down? Does anybody really believe that top-dollar drug cartels, with enough yearly profit to buy off entire South American governments, depend on good ol' Hank and Dave to buy them a shotgun at Wal-Mart????

 

[sailortoo]

"over the border"

I'm glad this article was posted - read it the morning paper, and wondered if there is any practicle way to counter the undesirable effect this type of blathering BS has on the general public. Really gives a false impression of the US as a rogue gun running nation. I don't personally know how many of what types of arms actually do cross the border into Mexico, but, as stated in a post above, I doubt the big bucks suppliers of drugs would be penny-ante Wally World purchasers. The "gun running" image is a real black eye for both the country, and those of us wanting to be on "The High Road" (more than just the site).
sailortoo
Semper Paratus (also)

 

[Logan5]

``You see a lot of firearms seized in New York, but not that sophisticated type of weapon,’’

What exactly are they packing in NYC lately that's not as sophisticated as the sixty year old AKM? Colt Navy .36's? Obsidian edged war clubs?

Pretty much nothing that fires brass cased ammo is new and exciting. If you want to BS me that it'll eat airplanes, it better be substantially better than what Napoleon could have come up with for anti-air capability.

 

[mekender]

Last time I heard you could not buy a AK at Wally World let alone a FN five seven.

FN also makes 9mm, .40S&W, and the FN hi-power .45acp

 

[Roswell 1847]

Just saying , the statement of shooting planes out of the sky is a far, far stretch .

There are thousands of dead fighter and bomber crew that bear mute witness to the effectiveness of the .50 BMG round. As I said besides the Barrett and knockoffs there are many M2HB floating around these days.
And there are Vehicle mounts for Barretts and similar weapons that would allow accurate fire on a slow moving aircraft.
I see Medevac choppers near here every week. When moving slowly they'd be easy targets. The .50 has many times the effective range of a .30 and unless the chopper pilot knew he was in someone's sights he would not be taking evasive action.
Drug interdiction choppers move very slowly because they are scanning the ground below in a search mode.
In California in the 90's a nutcase with a Ten Gauge took out several ultra light patrol craft over city parks injuring several police pilots. Those flew lower but not any slower than a chopper in search mode.

Ronnie G. Barrett, a manufacturer, said the idea

Barrett seems to have changed his tune from the days when he was hawking The M82a2 over the shoulder version for use against Soviet choppers.
His selling point then was that aimed semiauto fire from a ten shot Barrett M82A2 could put more rounds into an aircraft than a thirty shot burst from a M2HB.
And remember, the RPG was never considered to be an anti aircraft weapon till Mogadishu.
In recent years the Insurgents have shot down a number of our best gunships by bracketing them with vehicle mounted 14.5mm Soviet heavy machine guns. They ambush and catch the choppers in a crossfire.
The 14.5 is only slightly more powerful than the .50 BMG.
And those were armored choppers flown by experianced combat pilots in a known hot spot, not cops flying 60's retread Hueys and with no idea that they were flying over someones patch until they started taking fire.

The article only mentions the effectiveness of the .50 round, not any particular weaponry it was destined for. In this the article is correct, .50 BMg can most certainly knock down aircraft and is well suited for the purpose, perhaps because it was designed for that purpose.
Since most Mexicans can't even own a .22 rimfire without jumping through hoops we can be sure that long range target matches were not the intended use of those rounds.

 

[MachIVshooter]

The Mexican government has called on the United States to stop the flow of guns into the country, he said, but America’s firearms laws make it hard to stop gun running.

Tell you what.........we will, just as soon as they stop the flow of Mexicans into the US.

Otherwise, pound #&*%ing sand. The more of them kill each other below the border, the fewer come up here illegally and commit crimes against US citizens.

 

[armoredman]

Certainly the 50 BMG downed many planes - when fired from either fighter plane wing mounts or bomber defensive positions during the Second World War. Not from a single shot rifle. Show me one documented, not anecdote, not "he said", documented shooting down of a moving aircraft by a single shot 50 caliber rifle, please.
Machine guns and semi auto firearms are two worlds apart. The machine gun is known for laying down a cone of fire for suppression, and for the "hail of bullets" to take out a moving object. A rifle is far differant, firing one precisely aimed slug at a time. A Barret used as an anti aircraft weapon would quickly exhaust both the ammunition AND the operator, who has to withstand the recoil, UNLIKE a mounted heavy machine gun. Have you ever fired one?
I say Mexico has far worse firearm import problems - the Chiapas rebels were armed with full auto AKs, and the Mex Military is armed with M16A1s. Where did those come from? Not the US. When Mexico actively close the border to illegal invasion, ahem, I mean immigration to the US, I'll worry about thier other problems.

 

[Roswell 1847]

Show me one documented, not anecdote, not "he said", documented shooting down of a moving aircraft by a single shot 50 caliber rifle, please.

Find someone thats making that argument and ask them.

Certainly the 50 BMG downed many planes - when fired from either fighter plane wing mounts or bomber defensive positions during the Second World War. Not from a single shot rifle.

And quite a few were knocked out of the sky by a short burst from a ground gun position. A friend's father got a german Bomber like that in North Africa, and Pop knocked the bark off a Meatball in the pacific with a short burst from his 20mm mount.
Choppers got knocked out by ground fire in Nam every day, they weren't twisting and diving like Luke Skywalker attacking the Deathstar they were cruising along too low for their own good or coming into an LZ that the enemy knew better than they did.

And as I mentioned vehicle flexible mounts are available for the Barrett and its clones and knockoffs as well as numerous foriegn anti material rifles of similar type.

If a Drug gang wanted to knock down a chopper that was snooping around their stomping grounds they wouldn't be dealing with a 500 MPH straffing run, they'd be laying in the cut for a low slow unarmored civilian chopper whose pilots has his hands full holding it steady as possible so his infared cameras will get a good image for the people back at headquarters to study.
This region has long been a major supplier for Homegrown pot, I've seen this sort of chopper patrol dozens of times. They'd be easy targets. The Eleven shot M82A2 would be more than sufficient and a M82A1 with a pintle mount would be even better, and as I said there are many M2HB floating around out there, probably available at much lower prices than a Barrett.

I'm begining to think that a Meme is forming around the .50 BMG round.
When people see it mentioned they never consider that it might be used in an M2HB, the defensiveness towards the .50 Target rifles has bled over into downplaying the effectiveness of the round. From "one .50 can't bring down an airliner" the Meme has grown to "the .50 can't bring down a plane", despite mountains of evidence that it can, it has, and it continues to do so.

Also as I said the end user in Mexico would be much more likely to use it to shoot through the passenger compartment of el Jeffe's Armored Limo than compete in thousand yard matches.

A .50 BMg rifle can also stop a truckload of Ruales by busting the motor block at the limit of its accurate range.

Just because the 50 BMG round has peaceful uses doesn't put it out of the running as a very effective round against thin skinned or lightly armored vehicles and aircraft.
Its all in who is using it and why.

 

[Lucky]

Roswell you are very wrong.

Read this for starters: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

Then work through all the aircraft gun links. http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/miltech.htm

Then try to grasp an understanding of just how many guns were mounted on those planes, that shot other planes down. That's right, it's quite a few. And then look at what ammo they were firing - that's right it's not all just plain ball. Then look at how many shots they actually fired compared to how many actually hit - that's right damned few. And then look at the firing platform - that's right it was a specialized system with gunsights and extensive training enabling hits to be made.

In short, a bolt-action rifle that does not fire some form of extremely devastating explosive projectile is more or less harmless to aircraft.

And if you insist on diverting your argument into protection of police helicopters, and other slow and low targets, then you pretty much kill your argument all by yourself. The reason for this is because ANY rifle will work in that situation, and to be perfectly honest ones with higher rates of fire, more controllability and maneuverability will be better. Think about it, there's very little material mass to stop bullets, so you could use a pistol-carbine in .45acp and put very many 0.45 inch holes close together in a target, instead of being lucky to get 1 or 2 .0.50 inch holes.


So you are essentially arguing that all rifles should be prohibited because they threaten government military equipment. Which is ironic because any intelligent interpretation of the 2nd amendment clearly shows this is exactly what people are supposed to own rifles for.

The RAF had realised years before the war that the .303 MG might become inadequate as a primary aircraft gun, given the steady increase in speed, strength and toughness of aircraft. They considered, but rejected, .50 inch (I2.7 mm) guns as giving insufficient advantage over the .303. Instead, they sought a good 20 mm cannon, which they thought would be far more effective due to its explosive ammunition, and found one in the new French Hispano-Suiza HS.404.
...
Initially, the M2 used a mix of incendiary and AP bullets, with some tracers, but in 1944 the M8 API began to take over.
...
Of course, the projectiles could only inflict damage if they hit the target, and in aerial combat the great majority missed (estimates for an average pilot's hit rate varying between two and five percent).
...
The relative lack of effectiveness of the .50 bullets mean that it is necessary (on average) to score many more hits to shoot down a plane than with cannon armament.

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/CannonMGs.htm

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

shooting down a plane going couple hundred miles an hour is tough. wait for em on approach when they have to come down the slot its nor so bad. or take the pilot on a helo when it flares. all you gotta do is do it once to make the next guy right nervous

 

[sig226]

Indeed, the US Navy stopped using 50s on Japanese aircraft because they didn't work. They stopped using 20mm cannon on the kamikazes because those didn't wotk, either. They were using four inch guns.

 

[ROMAK IV]

Oh yes, there is quite a bit of misinformation in the article, but the most outrageous part, is the "ANTIGUN" stance of the ATF. It is not ethical for the ATF to make comments like this. They aren't a political organization, they're an enforcement organization. This "advocacy" of gun control" by the ATF is unethical and unprofessional, but of course no one has ever accused the ATF of being ethical and professional. Obviously, moving the ATF to the Justice Department has done NOTHING to stop their abuse of power, so we should push for the disbanding of the ATF.

 

[gym]

I guess if it's in the paper it must be true, lol

 

[Roswell 1847]

Lucky you obviously haven't even read my posts. You are answering arguments that I haven't made.

High performance Aircraft in dogfights at speeds of 400 MPH or better with the whole sky out there to manuver in are not the question.
Slow moving low alitude civilian police and DEA helicopters are the possible targets and no mention of single shot weapons was made in the news article or in my posts.
Also since unlike an aerial gunner a gunner on the ground need not be moving its much easier to lead the target.

The most common cause of a chopper going down is busting up the transmission case where power is supplied to the rotor or damge to the tail rotor or the power train leading to it.
A .30 can down one at 100 yards easily, and further with luck. A 50 can knock one down at several times the maximum effective range of a .30.

Can Helicopters be brought down by groundfire, most certainly. Is the .50 round an excellent choice for knocking down a chopper, it was designed for destroying aircraft.

US Fighters of WW2 were very resistent to battle damage, but japanese aircraft were not, they were no more sturdy than civilian aircraft and less sturdy than some civilian aircraft built for rough field operations. Yet even the flimsyest Jap fighter was more resistent to gunfire than all but a few civilian helicopters.

As I've said I've had ample opportunity to observe Drug Interdiction choppers at work both here and in Florida, and Medevac choppers pass by here frequently.

The future of the special-application rifle
The wide range of applications and the reliability, durability and light weight of the .50-calibre family of Barrett rifle weapons has resulted in more than 30 countries adopting either the semi-automatic M82A1 or the bolt-action Model 95. The Barrett M82A1 is finding increasing acceptance as a vehicle-mounted weapon, especially air-transportable vehicles where weight is important. Compared to the 39kg .50-calibre M2 machine gun, the M82A1 at 13.6kg (30Ib) is available at less than half the weight.

Cottage industries in building Technicals have sprung up all over South America and Mexico. A vehicle mounted Barrett would be plenty against a slow moving low flying chopper, and M2HB are available to those with cash and connections.

As for special rounds, even target ammo could bust a Huey transmission casing, Its just a magnesium alloy, no incendiary fireball is needed for special effects.
And the news story does not identify the rounds seized, could have been Military ammo stolen from an armory, it happens in real life as well as on CSI Miami. Our Guard Armory has been broken into several times in my memory, and I can remember reading of several armory breakins over the years, sometimes with casualties among the staff. Five finger discount is another source of contraband ammo.

The fact that the pistols are ID'ed as FN leads me to suspect that the point of origin for the entire shipment was Canada.
Canada gets its Cocaine from Mexican sources that tranship through the US, just as the US gets is Horse from Asia by way of Canada. I doubt any cash changed hands, drugs were probably traded for arms and ammo, with a Canadian military origin.

It seems that tried and true arguments against the gun grabbers asertions about single shot target .50 rifles have blinded you guys to the realities of the possible uses of the .50 BMG in the wrong hands.
You are throwing out rebuttals to arguments not made and ignoring the realities of the weaponry, ammunition, and vulnerability of possible targets, and assuming that Civilian choppers would be streaking around like apache gunships or WW2 fighters.

PS
One .50 in the turbine can sieze up a Mig 19 engine. No stories just an understanding of the engineering. We used to make turbine blades near here.

When the first blade breaks the engine eats its own innards in seconds. A good solid hit that starts a chain reaction of thrown blades will down a jet pretty quickly.

PPS

Indeed, the US Navy stopped using 50s on Japanese aircraft because they didn't work. They stopped using 20mm cannon on the kamikazes because those didn't wotk, either. They were using four inch guns.

If you'd ever noticed those Kamikazes were toast before they struck their targets, they were crashing as they struck, it was just a controlled crash, or as often a balistic strike with a deadman at the stick no power and no control surfaces.
Navy fighters continued to use .50 guns throughout WW2, 20mm aircraft guns didn't have a high enough rate of fire, thats why the sabre jets still used the .50 in Korea. Only USN Scout Dive bombers used 20mm guns in the Pacific. The Japanese found their 20mm guns effective but the rate of fire was far too slow for consistent hits, also their 20mm had a low velocity and a high trajectory.

The .50 guns of the US fighters allowed them to put many rounds out there but it did not take that many rounds to do the job. One .50 in the engine block would put almost any WW2 fighter out of the fight.

And again we aren't talking of 400+ MPH dogfights but low slow unarmored civilian helicopters.

Heres what I said in case you've forgotten

And the Fifty caliber has taken out everything up to Mig 19 fighters and would still be highly effective against Narcotics survelance aircraft.
Barrett even designed an over the shoulder version of his semi auto .50 for engaging Soviet Helicopters.
You can figure that the end users weren't interested in long range match shooting, more like shooting through the passenger compartment of el Jeffe's armored limo or busting a low flying plane or chopper getting too close to the patch.
Flexible vehicle mounts for Barretts and knock offs have shown up on "Technicals", and more than a few M2HB have disappeared from armories over the years.

Whats so hard to understand about that?

 

[Nolo]

These are, quite frankly, weapons of war

OMG! Weapons of WAR!? We must stop this! People must only have weapons of PEACE! Like... like... Damnit, I can't think of any weapons of peace.

50-caliber bullets - ammunition that’s big enough to take out an airplane.

50 caliber? Jeezus, how'd they haul it all.
That's... what, a 127cm cannon? That's bigger than the Gustav Gun! What are these drug runners doing!?
Oh, they meant .50 caliber.
That period is a big part of that designation.

They might buy guns over the Internet.

Surely we need to put restrictions on the Internet! These druglords must not be able to buy things that easily! Besides, only pedophiles use the Internet.
Honestly, I bet the drug lords are getting their food from the US, too.
With food, they are able to have the vigor and stamina needed to attack the police in Mexico. Therefore, I propose that we make it illegal to buy food without a license. And only in natural forms. No Gatorade, Coke or Wendy's. Only bread and uncooked meat. And unprocessed fruit and vegetables.
We must close the fast-food and grocery store loopholes. Anyone can just walk into a grocery store and buy orange juice for $3.00! $3 for all the energy needed to commit a heinous act of violence!
These druglords must not be able to access food so easily.

The 14.5 is only slightly more powerful than the .50 BMG.

Ummm... the 14.5mm produces 22,000 ft-lbs of energy. The .50 BMG produces anywhere from 11,000 to 15,000 ft-lbs.
That's like saying the .338 Lapua Magnum is only slightly more powerful than the .30-06.
You can compare them, but in every respect I can ever think of, the bigger round has significantly better performance.

 

[Roswell 1847]

Ummm... the 14.5mm produces 22,000 ft-lbs of energy. The .50 BMG produces anywhere from 11,000 to 15,000 ft-lbs.

Right you are, I was thinking of the Soviet 12.7 which is closer to the US .50 BMG.

At least you are contributing something to the discussion.

There seems to be a bit of hysteria when .50 BMG and Aircraft are mentioned, both from the press and from some who think the BMG is incapable of being used for harm. .