243winxb
Member
In large pistol primers, Rem & Win only make 1 each. No standard and mag both.
I use WLP for 45acp/bullseye powder and 44 mag/w296 or H110.
I use WLP for 45acp/bullseye powder and 44 mag/w296 or H110.
First Batch of .357: Teething Problems
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Ironicaintit
Member
I used to like 4227 in 357mag. Loaded fairly stiff, with magnum primers, they shot great and accurately. but those kernels.....I still use 4227 in 44Mag, but in 357 I switched to Unique (125gr), and sometimes Herco (140gr+), and sometimes H110 (barn burners)
4227 is a safe powder though. I don't think you can cram enough into a magnum or 30 carbine case to make it unsafe.
and about the primers....your predicament is similar to the one where I learned to treat the primer as part of the overall recipe, instead of priming them all as part of case prep.
4227 is a safe powder though. I don't think you can cram enough into a magnum or 30 carbine case to make it unsafe.
and about the primers....your predicament is similar to the one where I learned to treat the primer as part of the overall recipe, instead of priming them all as part of case prep.
mstreddy
Member
OP, since you keep mentioning it: H110 and 296, they are actually the same powder.
As is Win231 and HP38 on another end of the burn scale.
And there a few others.
Just putting it out there as one may be easier to find than the other in some markets.
As is Win231 and HP38 on another end of the burn scale.
And there a few others.
Just putting it out there as one may be easier to find than the other in some markets.
Some powders suitable for .357, .41, & .44 Mag need mag primers, some don't. It has nothing to do with "Mag" in the name of the caliber.
And there is no reason not to load lighter than full power .357 Mag loads in .357 Mag brass, just use a suitable powder.
And there is no reason not to load lighter than full power .357 Mag loads in .357 Mag brass, just use a suitable powder.
OP
OP
WrongHanded
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Thanks. I had read they were very similar and "possibly" the same, but had not see any confirmation. Though seeing how they would leap-year each other for top velocity through the different loads made me suspect that was true.
I didn't know about Win231 and H 38 though.
witchhunter
Member
Make sure you get a good crimp on .357 magnums. That will help your powder burn a little cleaner and stop bullets from seating themselves forward under recoil.
mstreddy
Member
OP,
There's been a few posts here about confirmation on the powders that are the same under different labels. From a couple of posters here - they have contacted Hodgdon and gotten the scoop straight from them on both W296/H110 and W231/HP38.
Another one that is not the same but has similar burn rates and can use the same data (by weight) is Alliant's Red Dot and Promo. Promo is marketed as a shotgun powder and only comes in 8 lb jugs. Alliant has published that you can use Red Dot data for pistol loads for it. I have followed BDS's lead on this and it has worked very well across several pistol calibers.
FYI, many shotgun powders are also labeled/marketed as "fast" pistol powders.
As to which powders to use for various cartridges, it can sometimes get confusing. Which should you buy? Which is "best"? Finding the one suitable for what you want to load (power/speed/accuracy) is the key. But, as you are finding, there are sometimes trade-offs that you'll encounter. Unburnt particles in IMR4227 is one. If you choose another powder, i.e. a faster one, then you may not get the top load in a magnum charge. And in some cases, the risk of double charging is greater compared to a slower burning powder which may fill the case better.
There's been a few posts here about confirmation on the powders that are the same under different labels. From a couple of posters here - they have contacted Hodgdon and gotten the scoop straight from them on both W296/H110 and W231/HP38.
Another one that is not the same but has similar burn rates and can use the same data (by weight) is Alliant's Red Dot and Promo. Promo is marketed as a shotgun powder and only comes in 8 lb jugs. Alliant has published that you can use Red Dot data for pistol loads for it. I have followed BDS's lead on this and it has worked very well across several pistol calibers.
FYI, many shotgun powders are also labeled/marketed as "fast" pistol powders.
As to which powders to use for various cartridges, it can sometimes get confusing. Which should you buy? Which is "best"? Finding the one suitable for what you want to load (power/speed/accuracy) is the key. But, as you are finding, there are sometimes trade-offs that you'll encounter. Unburnt particles in IMR4227 is one. If you choose another powder, i.e. a faster one, then you may not get the top load in a magnum charge. And in some cases, the risk of double charging is greater compared to a slower burning powder which may fill the case better.
Jim Watson
Member
At the risk of contributing to the delinquency of a handloader (Cooper), Elmer Keith did not use magnum primers with 2400 in heavy loads.
Slow burning Ball powders are less flexible than extruded or flake. Winchester used to say that no changes should be made in their loads with 296, go full charge or don't go. Hodgdon recommended a 3% reduction as a starting load for H110.
Yes, they are the same NOW, what with Hodgdon handling distribution of Winchester powders as well as their own brand, and all Ball and Spherical powder coming out of the same plant. But when Winchester handled their own distribution and load development, there were appreciable differences due to what lot and spec each company settled on as the standard for retail sale in canister sizes.
One reason to use current data.
Slow burning Ball powders are less flexible than extruded or flake. Winchester used to say that no changes should be made in their loads with 296, go full charge or don't go. Hodgdon recommended a 3% reduction as a starting load for H110.
Yes, they are the same NOW, what with Hodgdon handling distribution of Winchester powders as well as their own brand, and all Ball and Spherical powder coming out of the same plant. But when Winchester handled their own distribution and load development, there were appreciable differences due to what lot and spec each company settled on as the standard for retail sale in canister sizes.
One reason to use current data.
OP
OP
WrongHanded
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Update:
I loaded the 50 Federal cases and took them to the range. They all fired first time. I'll be trying the Remington cases again to see if I simply didn't seat the primers correctly my first time through.
Although I'm not a particularly good shot, I managed some single action groups at 25yds that I was fairly pleased with. Kneeling and resting my support hand on the bench, I got a 12 shot group at 4-3/8", and an 8 shot group at 4-3/4". Part of the reason for reloading is so I can shoot more regularly, and I think I'm improving (as sad as that may sound, based on those groups). I was finding the black ramp front sight on my GP100 was disappearing in the range lighting, and the red 1" dot in the middle of the black target isn't so easy for me to see at 25yds. I may switch back to the red ramp I have. Suggestions on front sights are welcome.
I loaded 14.1gr of the IMR4227 powder this time. Quite a jump from 12.2gr in the first batch, I know. I'll be going up 0.5gr at a time from here. Less unburnt powder, I think. And no jamming now that I turning the muzzle up before swinging out the cylinder and ejecting. More recoil of course, but still pretty tame.
So all in all, a much more successful trip to the range.
I loaded the 50 Federal cases and took them to the range. They all fired first time. I'll be trying the Remington cases again to see if I simply didn't seat the primers correctly my first time through.
Although I'm not a particularly good shot, I managed some single action groups at 25yds that I was fairly pleased with. Kneeling and resting my support hand on the bench, I got a 12 shot group at 4-3/8", and an 8 shot group at 4-3/4". Part of the reason for reloading is so I can shoot more regularly, and I think I'm improving (as sad as that may sound, based on those groups). I was finding the black ramp front sight on my GP100 was disappearing in the range lighting, and the red 1" dot in the middle of the black target isn't so easy for me to see at 25yds. I may switch back to the red ramp I have. Suggestions on front sights are welcome.
I loaded 14.1gr of the IMR4227 powder this time. Quite a jump from 12.2gr in the first batch, I know. I'll be going up 0.5gr at a time from here. Less unburnt powder, I think. And no jamming now that I turning the muzzle up before swinging out the cylinder and ejecting. More recoil of course, but still pretty tame.
So all in all, a much more successful trip to the range.
wally
Member
I'm seeing what appears to be lots of "unburned" powder in recent lots of powder using loads that I've been standardized on for a very long time. Pure speculation at this point, but I'm starting to wonder if this is not some kind of "tag" material added to the powder mandated by Homeland Security. OTOH the "new" tables at our club have white surfaces, so its possible I've just never noticed it before on the old weathered wood surfaces. If the load performs well I just don't worry about it -- although if its really unburnt powder it could quickly become an issue when shooting at indoor ranges.
A bit late to the game here, but having loaded 10s of thousands of 38 and 357 loads on a Lee turret, priming on the press, the two most important things for fully seating primers for me have been (1) watch to be sure the case is still fully seated in case holder (can occasionally slip out slightly due to stuff happens resulting in not quite fully seating), and (2) use some real pressure (as is necessary with an off-press seater). In rare cases if feel is not quite sure one can also turn the cartridge 180 degrees-ish and raise the arm with some muscle again—before the powder drop. I have had near zero issues this way. The turret press has worked really well for me.
RealGun
Member
Wronghanded made a number of references to loading his own defensive ammo. Let me just say that when I take my guns to town, I use commercial ammo. I think many do make their own though, and I wish them luck. In the woods, you have a stronger premise for using your own loads, even if on a two-legged threat. I will also add that loading your own SD requires providing enough power in the load to get proper bullet expansion. Lastly, I think 2400 was a good choice, well considered.
Jim Watson
Member
The previous two times that I know of when this gimmick was flown drew immediate loud protests from manufacturers and users. I doubt they could sneak taggants in without it being noticed. And about a fivefold increase in powder cost.
Just FYI, the max overall length for .357 Magnum (1.59") is based on the shortest cylinder produced in that caliber. You'll find that on S&W N frame revolvers with the rear of the cylinder machined so that the rims seat flush. This started with the original .357 Magnum (that's what S&W called the gun) in 1935 and extended through the M27-2 and M28-2 versions, the production of which ended around 1980 (not sure of the exact year). S&W K and L frame revolvers have longer cylinders, as do Ruger revolvers and (I think) Colts. As has already been noted, as long as the bullet nose doesn't extend past the face of the cylinder, you're good. I have five .357s; one of them is an M28-2, so I have to load all my .357 Mag ammo to 1.59".
Crimp into the cannelure or crimp groove and that is the correct OAL for that bullet and whatever you trim brass to. If it is too long for the cylinder of the gun there are options (Crimping in a different location), but the best option is to pick another bullet. This isn't a problem with most bullets and .357 revolvers. There are exceptions though.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...f-357-teething-problems.824310/#post-10605131
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...f-357-teething-problems.824310/#post-10605131
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