Fluted heavy barrel- question

[Clint M]

I hate to keep adding to the argument, just a few more points and I reckon I'm done stick a flute in it...

To reduce weight the best two areas are barrel length, and barrel diameter, fluting being a 3rd option for a small weight savings. Octagonal vs round with machines set up to handle round stock so much better than octagonal barrels I think the advance here is barrel manufacturing being easier, and less costly with round stock, nevertheless if you want an octagon barrel I see no reason not to have one. There have been a lot of advancements made to firearms materials, tolerances, accuracy, robustness, and aesthetics. I don't have a problem with fluted barrels, if I wanted one I would have a fluted barrel, BUT I would sure research it making sure the barrel manufacture/manufacturing process would give me the best end results that means the type of fluting I want coming from the barrel maker, and the type of rifling/process of manufacturing that gives the best end result of a fluted barrel.

If anyone wants some real world data, test,documentation I will do the testing if yall buy the barrels.

 

[bush3755]

Anyone ever wonder why fluted barrels aren't seen in winner circles at benchrest matches?

 

[lysanderxiii]

Do they have weight restrictions?

 

[bush3755]

Yes, some benchrest matches have weight limits.

But it's my opinion and that of many others their barrels are not fluted because that changes the bore and groove diameters irregularly. Accuracy suffers enough to be seen easily.

Other competitive shooting disciplines and bullet companies don't use fluted barrels if best accuracy is important.

Turning down finished button or forged rifled ones also changes those inside diameters. Much less or none at all with cut rifled ones.

If one must have a fluted barrel and best accuracy is top priority, have the gun drilled barrel blank fluted before it's rifled and lapped to uniform diameters.

 

[USSR]

...it's my opinion and that of many others their barrels are not fluted because that changes the bore and groove diameters irregularly. Accuracy suffers enough to be seen easily.

True with button rifled or hammer forged barrels, but not true with cut rifled barrels. Please note my previous post regarding this. Never flute a button rifled or hammer forged barrel. As for why you don't see fluted barrels in bench rest competition, the barrels typically used are short since ranges are short, and short barrels don't benefit in weight reduction to the same degree that long barrels do.

Don

 

[bush3755]

I would rather shoot a skinny long barrel than a fat one that's been fluted to reduce weight for long range use. Accuracy difference between fat and skinny long barrels at long range is insignificant. Both are very repeatable in how they whip and wiggle from shot to shot at their own resonant frequency and its harmonics.

The barrel has the most consistant performance from shot to shot if the barreled action is put together and stocked properly compared to all the other components; including those in the ammo and the shooter.

 

[USSR]

Accuracy difference between fat and skinny long barrels at long range is insignificant.

Try shooting in 1,000 yard competition, and you will be in for a rude awakening.

Don

 

[bush3755]

From what I've gleaned from the U.S. Palma Team shooting .308 Win 30" six pound barrels with the benchrest rifles with 12+ pound barrels the same length, the best of both shoot inside 6 to 7 inches at 1000 yards properly tested. One Palma Team member testing his skinny 30" barrel at 800 yards put 20 shots inside 3.5 inches; sub half MOA.

Of course, either type will occasionally put 5 shots inside 2 inches; a statistical fact of accuracy.

 

[USSR]

Palma rifles are what they are as a result of the rules and course of fire. First, the bullet has to be less than 156 grains and the cartridge .308 Winchester. Then, the rifle can't be heavier than 14.3 pounds for International competition. So, you simply must have a long barrel to get at least 2950fps out of the .308, and anything other than a long, skinny barrel will not meet the weight requirement. And lastly, the course of fire (shooting prone from a sling) would require superman to be able to shoot a long, heavy barreled rifle unsupported with a sling. I tried it once with my Model 70 Match rifle, and it is quite difficult. I assure you, when you are shooting in a course of fire in which weight is not so much a factor and you are able to use either a bipod or rest (such as F Class competition), then heavy barrels predominate on the firing line. In addition to being stiffer, they also take much longer to heat up and tend to be more stable when they do.

Don

 

[bush3755]

I don't think good barrels correctly installed change point of impact as they heat up from ambient to super hot shooting once every 20 seconds. That's the rate of fire that Palma shooter put 20 shots inside 3.5 inches at 800.

Barrels shot that fast don't heat up enough to change their resonant frequency. Lake City arsenal tested 30 caliber match ammo shooting near 300 rounds that fast. The average point of impact did not change.

 

[USSR]

bush,

Get yourself a rifle and try LR shooting. I did it for 6 years. Just because one guy shot some awesome group one time does not make it repeatable or a common day experience. In those 6 years I shot in 1,000 yard competition, guys were ecstatic just to shoot within 1 MOA. The wind makes LR shooting a humbling experience.

Don

 

[bush3755]

20 shots at 3.25" has a 95% probability of several hundred shots fired will land inside 3.9" so that's statistically significant.

Had a 2 ounce trigger been used instead of the Palma legal one at 3.5 pounds, the group may have been smaller.

Testing half an hour before sunrise pretty much eliminates all atmospheric variables such as wind; best time to test long range stuff for accuracy.

 

[Howard Roark]

Palma legal one at 3.5 pounds

There is no such requirement in Palma class. Not in American NRA nor International Fullbore. ICFRA has a 500 gram limit (about 1lb).

 

[Offfhand]

Quoted from earlier post in this thread:
"Anyone ever wonder why fluted barrels aren't seen in winner circles at benchrest matches?"

No offense, but it's obvious some contributors haven't been keeping up with current trends in benchrest shooting, certainly not short range (100,200&300 yd) competitions. As increasing numbers of BR competitors are adopting adjustable tuners attached to muzzles, they are compensating for the additional of the weight of the tuner by fluting their barrels. This allows them to maintain the desired barrel length and balance of their rifles while conforming to the specified weight restrictions of the varmint and sporter centerfire classifications. (10-1/2 lbs Light Varmint and Sporter class, and 13-1/2 for Heavy Varmint class.) While competing in the recently held Super Shoot BR tournament I noticed a number of the "big name" competitors were shooting rifles with tuners on fluted barrels. I expect this trend to continue and grow and expect to be doing so myself.

 

[HJ857]

Offhand you need to be careful. Speaking from first hand experience can get you permanently banned from the internet....

 

[bush3755]

Excuse me, please, Howard and Offhand....

When that 3.5" group with 20 holes was shot in the early 1990's, the international Palma trigger weight was 1.5kg; a smidgen over 3.3 pounds. Go back in time and learn about it.

I know that some short range benchrest barrels are fluted and have tuners on them. To my question....... What percent of the matches in each of the last three years were won with them? More important, any many 10-shot group aggregate records (best test of accuracy) held with a fluted barrel?

Rant off; politely.......

 

[USSR]

bush,

You're arguing statistical analysis of things that you find on the internet. As I said previously, get yourself a rifle and go get some first hand knowledge of what is involved in LR shooting.

Don

 

[bush3755]

Don, I was an NRA Long Range Master classified competitor for several years.

Does that count?

 

[USSR]

Hmm, on the internet, I suppose anything is possible. All I will say is, guys don't regularly "shoot inside 6 to 7 inches at 1000 yards" or "at 800 yards put 20 shots inside 3.5 inches". For you to think that this is commonly done and is to be expected tells me that you are a keyboard Master classified competitor.

Don

 

[Bart B.]

Those of you who don’t believe what Bush has said need a dose of reality. I’ve been following this thread with great interest. And nobody has answered his questions about fluted barrels winning and setting records in benchrest center fire disciplines Until that's answered, I too, am convinced no fluted barrel holds records or wins matches. But I'll quickly admit my ignorance if proved otherwise by a link to the match data stating it happened.

Of course, nobody regularly shoots many shot groups into 6 or 7 inches at 1000 yards. Bush never said they did; just cited a test that did. Some readers are making assumptions without asking for more details; normal for the “rush to judgement clans.” Read more carefully, remember it then you’ll not make such mistakes; maybe.

First off, he specifically said that guy who shot that sub 3.5 inch group with 20 shots was “testing” so it was not fired in competition. How do I know that for sure? I was the one who did it shooting from what’s now the classic F class position using some of Sierra’s prototype 155's in WCC60 match cases with IMR4895 over RWS primers. Here’s that group on the 1/4" foam board I shot it on back in 1993:



That’s the accuracy needed of the rifle and its ammo to keep all fired shots inside 2.5 MOA on the NRA’s LR target to produce good scores. Few people know why nobody slung up in prone cannot shoot more accurate most of the time when their holding area on target is .6 to .7 MOA and their rifle and ammo’s tested to that same level. Nobody can shoot 1.4 MOA (holding plus test group sizes) groups all the time with that setup, but occasionally so as the best scores and records show. The reason is the rifle’s sights are not aligned on the point of aim when the firing pin smacked the primer; it’s moved off some amount and points somewhere else when it leaves the barrel. Not many people understand that and the details of its cause.

Second, Bush is correct about rifles shooting 6 to 7 inch groups when properly tested. Top ranked high power match rifle competitors have been doing that since the 1960's. Even with brand new unprepped belted cases in 30 caliber magnums or full length sized ones in 28 caliber magnums and the .308 Win typically on Win. 70 based actions (Remington’s were/are only about 1/3rd as stiff). Typically done with Sierra Bullet’s “standards” (no longer sold by Sierra) that shot about 40% more accurate than those sold at retail in green boxes. A good friend used them to set the Wimbledon Match 1000-yard any rifle any sight record at Camp Perry back in 1970 with a borrowed 7mm Rem Mag rifle owned by Sierra Bullet’s ballistics test man. 32 shots inside the 20" V-ring shot from prone. In 1972, another friend I was later stationed at the same command with broke it shooting 42 shots inside that scoring ring with a .30-.338 using new unprepped cases.

Bush never said such groups were fired regularly by anyone. But some have alluded to that. He only mentioned the ammo was tested and shot that well. Here’s my plot of 30 shots fired about 20 seconds apart testing .30-.338 Keele ammo with Sierra “standards” alternately shooting a 190 then a 200 grain bullet. The 190's were shot from once fired, full length sized and neck turned cases; 200's from new ones unprepped. All fired from an F class position. Pit crew said all 30 measured about 6 inches extreme spread. X ring’s 10 inches diameter.



Both groups shot on the Colorado Rifle Club’s high power range which I and a friend laid out using an electronic distance meter one sub-zero day in January, 1985.

I think one of you owes Bush an apology for claiming he’s a keyboard Master classified competitor or some other ignorant person about long range shooting. Facts are, he’s right and some of you may well be what you’re claiming he is; or just plain jealous that someone knows anything about long range shooting than you don’t.

 

[Jim Watson]

I can only cite that great barrel man Gale McMillan on the subject. (You know, the guy who said that "breaking in a barrel" was a con to sell more barrels.)
He said that the main result of barrel fluting was to transfer money from your pocket to the machinist's.

 

[Offfhand]

This is certainly interesting about:
" that great barrel man Gale McMillan" mentioned in previous post.
Please tell us more about him, and his barrels, etc.
Many thanks

 

[USSR]

I think one of you owes Bush an apology for claiming he’s a keyboard Master classified competitor or some other ignorant person about long range shooting.

Sorry, Bart B., but I stand by what I said. Ignorant statements like "Accuracy difference between fat and skinny long barrels at long range is insignificant." makes it easy. There is a reason why we F Class shooters shoot heavy contour barrels.



Don

 

[Jim Watson]

Offfhand: The late Gale McMillan was a barrel and rifle maker of some note. His statement that breaking in a new barrel is unnecessary and just adds wear so you have to buy another barrel sooner is considered the clincher in Internet Debates on the subject.

His opinion on fluting is less well known and even less widely accepted, for some reason.

 

[Bart B.]

USSR, if you can explain all of the details why a fat barrel of the same length and bore/groove/chamber dimensions will shoot bullets to disperse smaller on target as a skinny one, I'll agree with you. If you detail any element of the issue I can realistically counter, then I'm right.

Keep in mind you'll have to disagree with hundreds of people who've shot both thick and thin barrels of the same length for a given cartridge and not observed any accuracy difference. Have you done that? I have.