Followed by a tailgater!
- Thread starter axehead77
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My comments....
I'll thankfully stay out of EOTechRulesAll's discussion with other members and stick to the OP's situation.
First, Axehead, welcome to THR and thanks for sharing your story.
Second, seriously.... get a better SD handgun. The NAA is a nice thing for a few applications, but I'd want something a bit more capable if it came down to it.
Third, Some of the comments here are, in my opinion, off-base and not reflective of the situation you describe. Some are not based in a workable reality.
I'll give my take on it. Do understand, however, that I am not offering legal advice as I do not know the laws underwhich you live. Make sure you know those laws and operate within the laws as well as your own moral compass.
Axehead77 wrote:
I've been there. At this point, you have no reason to suspect anything other than a hot-head behind you. The situation merits close observation of the person at this point and nothing more-- unless it is slowing down to let the guy pass.
Axehead77 wrote:
I live in a rural setting as well. By the time I start getting pretty close to my house, I would become very aware if a car I didn't recognize was making the same turns as me. I know all of my neighbors.
Likely, I would start to get a heightened awareness of something being odd about this car at this time.
I want to point out that at this time, you haven't done anything wrong. If he didn't pull up at your house, you'd likely assume that the car moved on.
At the time that you saw him on the street, your Spidey-sense should have been going off.
Best solution is to have the wife call 911 and go get something to carry larger than a NAA revolver.
Now, THIS would have been my process....
If I pulled out and saw the car sitting like that, I'd put my handgun in easy position to get. I don't leave without my 1911A1, so it would already be there. I'd probably call my father-- who lives nearby-- and let him know that something is odd. I don't know that I'd call 911 yet. What exactly would I tell them? What exactly has the car done? Being in a rural setting, we live quite a ways from ANY police units, and they DO NOT appreciate getting called out on false calls.
If I had to continue on, and had to pass the vehicle, I'd have my wife keep Dad on the phone as we passed. My father is a better call than 911-- since LEO's are 25 miles away.
Axehead77 wrote:
OK... this is a BIG tip-off that he isn't going to be your new friend.
Where was the person positioned with the bat at this time? And where were you positioned at this time? How far from your house is the road?
Since I don't have the information from you on this, I will have to operate from my own situation at this time. My house is about 75 or so yards away from the road in front of my home. Now I am in a unique situation where the actual road my house is on is a private road on my property. He'd already be trespassing. In addition, we live behind an electronic chain-link gate. In reality, he wouldn't have gotten to my house in the first place. But I'll ignore that for now.
So there is a guy on the road at the end of my driveway with a baseball bat, and I am at my car near my house.
Well, this is where I'd have my wife call 911, and I'd arm myself. If I had been driving out and saw him, I'd calmly back up my drive and get to the house. I would have got the wife in kids into the house, had her call 911, and arm myself.
I'd probably shout to the guy something like "Can I help you?" and see where that goes. If I got a threatening response, I'd shout back that 911 has been called, and are enroute. I'd also warn the person not to come any closer.
Realistically, this would have likely ended the situation.
Axehead77 wrote:
OK... this is important. What is she saying. If I heard them getting all worked up about doing violence to me, may well have NOT warned them that 911 was called. I'd prefer that they didn't leave so that they could be arrested and charges pressed.
Of course, this is also assuming that they have not made an attempt to enter my drive or come to the house.
Axehead77 wrote:
This becomes problematic to me, because I'd have backed up to the house as soon as I realized he was parked at my drive. In short, I would not have been in the situation you were in based upon what information you had at the time and the perceptions you had.
I'd have already backed up to my home and waited to see his response to the above.
Axehead77 wrote:
Check with your laws. I do know this... a guy beating his way into my car with a bat is using a weapon against my property. I would HAVE to assume that he is only using it against the car in order to get to me and my family.
Exactly why would I NOT have reason to believe that me and my family were in danger? I would respond in kind.
Axehead77 wrote:
Ahh.. OK. I'd still try to get back to my house before I was close enough to the guy.
Now... I have to reply to this....
Aguila Blanca wrote:
In my rural setting, exactly which police station should I have gone to? The one 25 miles South of me, or the one 25 miles North of me?
People forget that it is unrealistic to go running to the police station every time something goes on that you don't understand or gets your awareness up. It wouldn't be long before everyone thought you were a nut-- including the police. You'd also spend most of your time driving to this police station or that one.
Same with calling 911. Around here, you will get on the "Crying Wolf" list rather quickly if you call 911 everytime the wind blows. Don't be surprised if the responses get longer and longer.
In the rural world, people are required to be more self-sufficient. You just can't go running to the police station or expect the sheriff's deputy to come running and drive 30 minutes to your home for a false call.
That is why I said I'd first call my father. He would know instantly if there was an issue and could:
1.) call 911 for me if I was in a situation
2.) come running with an 870 and be there in 3 minutes. Not great, but beats half-an-hour.
I agree with Aguila Blanca in that there was no justification for force at the point where this ended.
However, I strongly disagree with the notion of opportunity to get away or running to the police station. It isn't realistic in most rural environments I'd been in. If you are close enough to a police station where you can run there on a whim, you aren't in a rural environment.
I should also reiterate that the instant the guy hit the car with a bat, the situation dramatically changes from "no-response appropriate" to "this is a life-threatening situation."
I've seen a guy get put in ICU from one hit with a bat at a party when I was in highschool. My father had a friend get killed from one hit from a trailer hitch ball in a fight back in high school.
As soon as a person closes into distance where they can strike at you, and give you indication that this is their intent, you ARE in a life-threatening situation.
-- John
I'll thankfully stay out of EOTechRulesAll's discussion with other members and stick to the OP's situation.
First, Axehead, welcome to THR and thanks for sharing your story.
Second, seriously.... get a better SD handgun. The NAA is a nice thing for a few applications, but I'd want something a bit more capable if it came down to it.
Third, Some of the comments here are, in my opinion, off-base and not reflective of the situation you describe. Some are not based in a workable reality.
I'll give my take on it. Do understand, however, that I am not offering legal advice as I do not know the laws underwhich you live. Make sure you know those laws and operate within the laws as well as your own moral compass.
Axehead77 wrote:
I've been there. At this point, you have no reason to suspect anything other than a hot-head behind you. The situation merits close observation of the person at this point and nothing more-- unless it is slowing down to let the guy pass.
Axehead77 wrote:
I live in a rural setting as well. By the time I start getting pretty close to my house, I would become very aware if a car I didn't recognize was making the same turns as me. I know all of my neighbors.
Likely, I would start to get a heightened awareness of something being odd about this car at this time.
I want to point out that at this time, you haven't done anything wrong. If he didn't pull up at your house, you'd likely assume that the car moved on.
At the time that you saw him on the street, your Spidey-sense should have been going off.
Best solution is to have the wife call 911 and go get something to carry larger than a NAA revolver.
Now, THIS would have been my process....
If I pulled out and saw the car sitting like that, I'd put my handgun in easy position to get. I don't leave without my 1911A1, so it would already be there. I'd probably call my father-- who lives nearby-- and let him know that something is odd. I don't know that I'd call 911 yet. What exactly would I tell them? What exactly has the car done? Being in a rural setting, we live quite a ways from ANY police units, and they DO NOT appreciate getting called out on false calls.
If I had to continue on, and had to pass the vehicle, I'd have my wife keep Dad on the phone as we passed. My father is a better call than 911-- since LEO's are 25 miles away.
Axehead77 wrote:
OK... this is a BIG tip-off that he isn't going to be your new friend.
Where was the person positioned with the bat at this time? And where were you positioned at this time? How far from your house is the road?
Since I don't have the information from you on this, I will have to operate from my own situation at this time. My house is about 75 or so yards away from the road in front of my home. Now I am in a unique situation where the actual road my house is on is a private road on my property. He'd already be trespassing. In addition, we live behind an electronic chain-link gate. In reality, he wouldn't have gotten to my house in the first place. But I'll ignore that for now.
So there is a guy on the road at the end of my driveway with a baseball bat, and I am at my car near my house.
Well, this is where I'd have my wife call 911, and I'd arm myself. If I had been driving out and saw him, I'd calmly back up my drive and get to the house. I would have got the wife in kids into the house, had her call 911, and arm myself.
I'd probably shout to the guy something like "Can I help you?" and see where that goes. If I got a threatening response, I'd shout back that 911 has been called, and are enroute. I'd also warn the person not to come any closer.
Realistically, this would have likely ended the situation.
Axehead77 wrote:
OK... this is important. What is she saying. If I heard them getting all worked up about doing violence to me, may well have NOT warned them that 911 was called. I'd prefer that they didn't leave so that they could be arrested and charges pressed.
Of course, this is also assuming that they have not made an attempt to enter my drive or come to the house.
Axehead77 wrote:
This becomes problematic to me, because I'd have backed up to the house as soon as I realized he was parked at my drive. In short, I would not have been in the situation you were in based upon what information you had at the time and the perceptions you had.
I'd have already backed up to my home and waited to see his response to the above.
Axehead77 wrote:
Check with your laws. I do know this... a guy beating his way into my car with a bat is using a weapon against my property. I would HAVE to assume that he is only using it against the car in order to get to me and my family.
Exactly why would I NOT have reason to believe that me and my family were in danger? I would respond in kind.
Axehead77 wrote:
Ahh.. OK. I'd still try to get back to my house before I was close enough to the guy.
Now... I have to reply to this....
Aguila Blanca wrote:
In my rural setting, exactly which police station should I have gone to? The one 25 miles South of me, or the one 25 miles North of me?
People forget that it is unrealistic to go running to the police station every time something goes on that you don't understand or gets your awareness up. It wouldn't be long before everyone thought you were a nut-- including the police. You'd also spend most of your time driving to this police station or that one.
Same with calling 911. Around here, you will get on the "Crying Wolf" list rather quickly if you call 911 everytime the wind blows. Don't be surprised if the responses get longer and longer.
In the rural world, people are required to be more self-sufficient. You just can't go running to the police station or expect the sheriff's deputy to come running and drive 30 minutes to your home for a false call.
That is why I said I'd first call my father. He would know instantly if there was an issue and could:
1.) call 911 for me if I was in a situation
2.) come running with an 870 and be there in 3 minutes. Not great, but beats half-an-hour.
I agree with Aguila Blanca in that there was no justification for force at the point where this ended.
However, I strongly disagree with the notion of opportunity to get away or running to the police station. It isn't realistic in most rural environments I'd been in. If you are close enough to a police station where you can run there on a whim, you aren't in a rural environment.
I should also reiterate that the instant the guy hit the car with a bat, the situation dramatically changes from "no-response appropriate" to "this is a life-threatening situation."
I've seen a guy get put in ICU from one hit with a bat at a party when I was in highschool. My father had a friend get killed from one hit from a trailer hitch ball in a fight back in high school.
As soon as a person closes into distance where they can strike at you, and give you indication that this is their intent, you ARE in a life-threatening situation.
-- John
Kentucky Kernel
Member
My cell phone and my firearm are my two best defensive tools. I think the OP handled it well. He was not aware that the BG was still around so it was unintentional that the BG found out where Axehead lived. Other than get a bigger gun as has been stated before, I'd do the same thing. Protect my wife and kids, and not let the BG get near the car if they are swinging a bat. Call 911 and prepare to shoot if necessary.
EOTechRulesAll
member
They're not a casual tailgater when they're flashing their lights, making gestures, leaning out of the window to scream, waving their hands/arms, etc. They're a potentially violent person who needs to be told/informed to BACK DOWN, WAY DOWN, before things get any further out of control. I'm not talking about the little old lady who forgot how to drive properly and is a bit too close. I'm talking about the maniac who is so offended that you are upset at his tailgating, that he initiates a ten-mile long stalking, and will follow you off the highway if you pull off to try to get away from him or let him around you.
EOTechRulesAll
member
America had a secret campaign in Namibia? This is news to me...
Doesn't it make sense that my South African friends, who were adults in the 1980s in South Africa, would have military experience as it was pretty much a requirement. Not to mention some of them saw active deployment in Namibia and/or Angola. I don't see what's so odd about having friends in South Africa.
I know people who have friends in Canada, relatives in Mexico, etc. Is any of that odd?
EOTechRulesAll
member
Go ahead and call me a jackass, a jerk, or any sort of 'name' you want, but don't call me by a name (identity) that is not my own.
In person if you were to call me a jerk, I'd take it a lot better than if you called me by the name of an infamous local felon because you didn't believe that I am who I say I am, and who I know am.
If it was me, I'd be heading to one or the other long before I head to my home. The last thing I want is some nutcase knowing where I live.
I'd call 911 and start driving to the police station. With any lucky, either he will get bored or the squad car will reach you before you get there.
M1911 wrote:
My point being is that we see idiots on the road all the time. We also see things that are not familiar all the time.
We have to remember that we are operating from the set of facts that are known in the chronological order of the situation. Hind-sight with full knowledge is a luxury that does not exist.
From what I gathered, at the point where going to the police station was an option, I don't think I would have seen it as merited.
At the time where it was clearly merited, it was no longer an option.
-- John
My point being is that we see idiots on the road all the time. We also see things that are not familiar all the time.
We have to remember that we are operating from the set of facts that are known in the chronological order of the situation. Hind-sight with full knowledge is a luxury that does not exist.
From what I gathered, at the point where going to the police station was an option, I don't think I would have seen it as merited.
At the time where it was clearly merited, it was no longer an option.
-- John
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Folks, I hate to close this one down, as there are some valuable lessons to be learned from the information given by the original poster.
Unfortunately, the signal-to-mall-ninja ratio in this thread has gone straight to eleven.
axehead77, please feel free to copy your original post and start a new thread about this incident either here, or in The Strategies and Tactics Forum.
Unfortunately, the signal-to-mall-ninja ratio in this thread has gone straight to eleven.
axehead77, please feel free to copy your original post and start a new thread about this incident either here, or in The Strategies and Tactics Forum.
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