Glocks and Lead

[Vodoun da Vinci]

Yeah...I know we have discussed this before. I read all that and have searched about the 'Net and have not quite found what I'm trying to decide.

I'm a lover of flat nose lead bullets for SD. They work well for practice so it's a win/win in that regard because I'm a firm believer in practicing with the same ammunition you would use to preserve your life. I practice a lot actually as I enjoy the training as well as the reloading.

I also love my Glocks having a G26 that shoots my favorite hand loads with no problems - I'm shooting 124 gr. Berry's plated flat noses. I shoot Rim Rim Rock 75. gr hard cast lead in my .32 ACP loads thru my Colt Model M's. I'd love to work up a load of flat nosed lead (plated) for my Wife's up and coming G42 in .380 but there is no such thing as plated flat nose lead that I can find. I'd love to shoot Rim Rocks hard cast FN lead in .380 but,as we all know, Glock says *Do Not!* shoot lead in Glock barrels and then the fight begins.

So, I thought I'd ask if we can discuss this again and I'd like to confine the discussion to folks who are actually running lead bullets in their Glocks (with stock barrels) for their input specifically. Theories are great but I'm more interested in input from those who are doing it and not from folks who feel that if Glock says don't do it then that's good enough for them.

I generally only run 100 - 300 rounds at a session and then clean my guns beginning with the barrel and a lead remover cloth anyway. What's the worst case scenario? Can I really expect to ruin my barrel/blow up the gun and get injured if I run more than 1 lead bullet down the bore?

Thanks in advance for any practical information other Glock owners who shoot lead can offer!

VooDoo

 

[rodregier]

I wouldn't be eager to run a cast lead projectile loading in an autopistol for SD purely from a technical POV. There is much more fouling and issues with lead shaving down to the case rim during projectile reloading seating that could make chambering more difficult that makes me concerned about such usage. Using an RCBS "M" die for case flaring can help with that, although I never pursued it.

Hornady makes a flat-point jacketed projectile if such configurations appeal to you.

Having said that, I've run cast projectiles in 9mmx19 G17 Glocks in the past. Using projectiles that are hard enough that they can't be dented by your fingernails (or harder), and having them sized correctly yields a good result. Where you can run into problems is using softer lead projectiles, they can lead up the polygonal barrel in the Glock quickly, which is bad news. I used 124g cast projectiles from the Saeco-Redding #377 mold, which is a stubby broad diameter flatpoint, which permits ideal tuning of the seating depth to match the barrel throat in the Glock. Seating a cast projectile far from the barrel throat is a poor recipe for accuracy :-( My casting source using antimony-based wheelweights as alloy, and dropped them direct into water to harden them.

http://www.redding-reloading.com/online-catalog/88-bullet-moulds-charts

When I was able to afford it, I switched to jacketed projectiles. Minimal smoke from bullet lube decomposition, less firearm fouling from same, and no issues with lead shavings at the case mouth interfering with chambering.

If you want a really accurate projectile for a Glock in 9mmx19, look at the Hornady HAP in 125g. Not designed to expand even if it has a hollowpoint.

http://www.hornady.com/store/HAP-Hornady-Action-Pistol

 

[John3921]

Is this what you're looking for? 380 acp flat nose plated 100 gr

Can't help you with Glock and lead. There is extensive discussion on the topic in the cast boolits forums. The very short version seems to be you can do it if you pay attention to the details. The people I know who do it use very hard alloy and I believe sizing them correctly is very important.

 

[Reefinmike]

Xtreme bullets manufactures a plated 380 flat point bullet...

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

Thanks for the responses!!

I have no idea how I missed finding those plated flat noses for .380 but they are book marked for certain...I'd prefer a wider meplat but I think the offerings from Xtreme and RMR are gonna get tested before I try the Rim Rock lead flat noses I use for the .32's

Awesome information. I'll get some of these and measure 'em and shoot 'em before I temp Glock Fate and shoot hard cast lead even though I have had phenomenal performance with them in the .32.

VooDoo

 

[tightgroup tiger]

You'll be very happy with the quality you get from Xtreme and Rocky Mountain Reloading. It's all I use now and RMR seems to be able to keep them in stock.

If you order from RMR make sure and tell them you belong to THR. You don't get a discount but your order will go out ahead of the rest. It will ship the same day.
Jacob has been caught up on his orders for a while now so it shouldn't be a problem but in the past it was a blessing for me.

 

[sexybeast]

So, I thought I'd ask if we can discuss this again and I'd like to confine the discussion to folks who are actually running lead bullets in their Glocks (with stock barrels) for their input specifically. Theories are great but I'm more interested in input from those who are doing it and not from folks who feel that if Glock says don't do it then that's good enough for them.

Vodoun, what a great way to ask a question. Love it. I've done it the same way. "Please only answer this if you have done or tried it, not if you have read about it". You get quite a few responses from drama queens who "read" alot of others posts on this subject! Actual experience trumps a bookworms research and theory everytime.
I've loaded and shot well over 50 thousand lead bullets through my 2nd gen glocks 17, 23, and 22. I load and shoot about 300rds a week. And I also use the brass over and over with no problems. You do have to load for "lead" and not for jacketed! With 9mm I have developed a "rule of thumb", the starting load for jacketed is the max load for lead! But I tend to use faster powders. Lead is softer, lubed, and will accellerate with less pressure than fmj. Too much pressure will go around the bullet and cause "cutting" which deposits lead on the barrel. Many people I know shoot lead out of a glock with no problems, however if you like "Hot" loads then lead is not for you. I clean my barrel about every two matches, 400-600 rds.
This brings us to your thoughts on lead for self defense loads,,,hmmm I would think a soft lead wadcutter out of a 38 special would be a reasonable defense load for a woman or elderly recoil shy person, but not for 9mm. Most lead for 40 or 9 that you would buy is hard 16-18bin. Probably not going to get much if any expansion and in my judgment there would be no advantage. My 2cents. My "carry" caliber is 40 and I have hollow points. Hope this helps.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I have quiet a bit of experience shooting lead bullets through a G22 gen 3 with a stock barrel. We've probably shot 1k rounds through it with no noticeable effect. Never had to clean the barrel or anything.

The key is to make sure your bullets are .001 to .002 larger than your bore. A poor fit is going to lead, a good fit will be fine. There are those out there that have shot a lot more than me with no ill effects either.

The problem doesn't arise because of leading in the barrel. Problems occur when lead builds up in the headspace area of the chamber and causes the gun to fire out of battery. That is a kaboom.
I don't know if all Glocks will do that or not, but I know the 1st gen models would.

 

[ClarkEMyers]

Had a kaboom - probably reused guppy brass too much, probably.


Things that show up on a search - emphasis added

Good advice has been given on the Glocks---if you load up to full power you'll likely have to throw the brass away after one loading because it will be bulged like a pregnant guppy and unsafe to ever shoot again. The Glock feed rsmps are cut for reliability at the sacrifice of case support.

Elkins45

 

[Arkansas Paul]

What is guppy brass?

 

[Kuyong_Chuin]

What is guppy brass?

Bulged brass from an unsupported barrel.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

Vodoun, what a great way to ask a question. Love it. I've done it the same way. "Please only answer this if you have done or tried it, not if you have read about it". You get quite a few responses from drama queens who "read" alot of others posts on this subject! Actual experience trumps a bookworms research and theory every time.

Thanks for the input!!

I already read lot's of stuff here at THR and all over the 'Net and basically it came to a total wash - 1/2 say do - 1/2 don't don't even dare. With good reasons both ways...I wanted input from folks who have done it or suffered because of it.

Now that I have found plated flat points I'll probably shoot those and see if I get what I want. In .380 I do not want expansion I don't think...I tested and worked up some pretty stiff .32 ACP rounds and feel strongly that hollow points are just not the answer all the time/everywhere for SD. I know my views are in the minority so we don't need to start a flame war about that.

In SD situations I want flat nosed bullets and penetration with a .380 and I'll do the appropriate testing. And I sincerely thank folks for their lead-in-the-Glock experience and input!

VooDoo

 

[wanderinwalker]

I'm hopping in here to see how it goes for you Vodoun. I've fired a couple of magazines of lead bullets through my Glock 17 (loaded for a KelTec PF-9). They didn't seem to leave any noticeable deposits but I can't remember what the bullets were, other than 125gr and locally acquired. I do recall I fueled them with 231 and even holding tight and the cases just dribbled out of the ejection port.

Lately I've been tempted to tack a box onto my next MBC order, just to experiment.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

I prolly need to slug my Glock barrles first as I did my Colt's when picking/sizing bullets. I *really* like the way the flat point lead bullets react on a target in hot .32 and really don't think they'd be that much different in .380 or even 9mm.

I'd prefer to keep running plated bullets as they keep things so clean and smokeless. It's the only bad thing about the lead in the .32 Colts is the smoke.

VooDoo

 

[rodregier]

It's scary seeing brass that looks like it's ready to have an aneurysm in one portion above web. (Guppy brass). That bugle corresponds to the unsupported part of the chamber. In my experience the first, 2nd and 3rd generation barrels in the Glock in 9mmx19 had pretty good case support. Apparently less so in the early .40 S&W versions.

 

[Elkins45]

40 and 10mm are the problem children for Glock. I haven't heard any complaints of case failure with the 9mm or 357 guns. The original design just seems to work with the original cartridge quite well.

Because the 357 is a bottleneck round there doesn't need to be hardly any material removed from the bottom of the barrel at the feed ramp. I have routinely driven lead down my G33 at full speed without any problems, but I pay attention to proper fit and lube.

I have shot a fair bit of 9mm lead, but that was when I was only casting and shooting the Lee tumble lube design bullets. I didn't have serious leading problems but I could never get accuracy to come close to jacketed.

 

[GLOOB]

Worse case? Yeah you can blow up your gun. It doesn't matter if you clean it every time you bring it home. If your glock doesn't like your handload, that might be too late.

I would inspect the bore after the first shot of a new cast bullet load, and take it from there. Bring some cleaning equipment and/or be prepared to end a shooting session early.

Thanks in advance for any practical information other Glock owners who shoot lead can offer!

I shoot plenty of lead in Glocks, and I pretty much don't have to clean my factory Glock barrels, anymore, after sorting through the process.

The 9mm is the problem child, because of the cases. 9mm cases vary quite a bit. They can be quite thick near the bast of a cast bullet. And since they are historically loaded with jacketed bullets, some of the reloading dies don't flare the case deep enough to overcome this. My Lee dies can't be adjusted to flare beyond the first fraction of an inch. To fix this problem on a Lee, you can use a 38SW flaring ring in the 9mm flaring die. Or you can buy a Lyman M die.

Slugging a Glock bore is probably not worth the effort. They're forged over a mandrel, which makes the internal dimensions pretty consistent. AND more importantly, the 9mm chambers are cut very generous; i.e., you can essentially use as big a bullet as you want. Your glock bore is effectively <0.3560" and will take 0.357-8" no problem. So buy/make them big, and don't worry any more about it. If you're having problems with bullets sized 0.356 or larger, it's probably an expander plug problem.

 

[sexybeast]

It's scary seeing brass that looks like it's ready to have an aneurysm in one portion above web. (Guppy brass). That bugle corresponds to the unsupported part of the chamber. In my experience the first, 2nd and 3rd generation barrels in the Glock in 9mmx19 had pretty good case support. Apparently less so in the early .40 S&W versions

I have a g22 early gen 2 and shoot lead and the same brass over and over. The bulge sizes right out so it will chamber again. Most of the brass I toss starts cracking at the mouth.
I've had two case failures. One in a 9mm taurus and the other in Kimber in .45. No matter what you shoot inspect your brass!

 

[Elkins45]

I have a g22 early gen 2 and shoot lead and the same brass over and over. The bulge sizes right out so it will chamber again. Most of the brass I toss starts cracking at the mouth.

OK, but the stakes are higher in a polymer gun. I got a batch of 10mm brass that had likely been "de-guppified" without my knowledge, and one of the first ones I shot suffered a major case head failure. My Glock 20 needed a trip to Georgia for a new frame. I tested a couple of the remaining ones in my steel framed 1006 and the gun suffered no ill effects when another of the bad cases let go.

It cost me almost $100 in shipping and replacement cost to learn that lesson, and I pulled down the remaining rounds loaded in that "once fired" brass and weighed every charge. None were over what they were supposed to be or over load book maximum, and there wasn't room in the case for a double charge. The only conclusion I can come to is that the brass was too weak to contain a full power load after resizing.

I suspect you would be OK if you're not getting up near the upper limit of pressures with reloads, and clearly your experience has been trouble free. But my experience has been different and so I thought I would share it, although the discussion of bulged brass is a separate issue from shooting lead vs jacketed.

Here's my G20 after a case head failure:



Amazingly, I think I could have continued to shoot it with a little JB Weld.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

GLOOB is spot on.
If you don't bell the 9mm case enough, which the stock Lee expander case won't, the case can actually size down the bullet to smaller than specs. Of course your crimp can be too much as well. Only taper crimp enough to remove the bell.

 

[solvability]

I compete with Stock G34 and G35 and use lead or polymer coated lead and do clean the barrel between matches - no issues in the 8 years I have been running them.

I carry HST and Ranger in my carry guns G22 and G21.

 

[sexybeast]

OK, but the stakes are higher in a polymer gun. I got a batch of 10mm brass that had likely been "de-guppified" without my knowledge, and one of the first ones I shot suffered a major case head failure. My Glock 20 needed a trip to Georgia for a new frame. I tested a couple of the remaining ones in my steel framed 1006 and the gun suffered no ill effects when another of the bad cases let go.

It cost me almost $100 in shipping and replacement cost to learn that lesson, and I pulled down the remaining rounds loaded in that "once fired" brass and weighed every charge. None were over what they were supposed to be or over load book maximum, and there wasn't room in the case for a double charge. The only conclusion I can come to is that the brass was too weak to contain a full power load after resizing.

I suspect you would be OK if you're not getting up near the upper limit of pressures with reloads, and clearly your experience has been trouble free. But my experience has been different and so I thought I would share it, although the discussion of bulged brass is a separate issue from shooting lead vs jacketed.

First: sorry about seeing your G20 like that. I have one also and also shoot lead in it. You did not say if you were shooting lead?
I think the whole point of the question Vodoun made was: Is it OK to shoot lead out of a Glock pistol with a factory barrel? My answer is yes, but you have to load the lead bullets different than you would FMJ. My earlier posts explain that, much less powder! With fmj I use 4.8gr of titegroup behind a 115gr bullet, with lead its 3.8gr! Quite a difference with such a fast powder. Same goes with 40 and 10mm for that matter.
85% of what I load and shoot is lead, and most of it gets shot through my 2nd gen glocks!
"Upper limit of pressures with reloads"? I only do it with 9mm for my longslide 1911 so yeah I don't do it with my glocks. And I have had no probems.
In my not so humble opinion, you can't shoot max loads with lead. I know people will say you can, but don't! Gas checks don't count!

 

[mtrmn]

Shot lead bullets in my Glocks for years before I ran across my first article saying it was dangerous. I had no trouble then and I have no trouble now.

 

[mxjunky78]

I run MBC bullets all the time through my G22 with absolutely no leading whatsoever! They shoot great over 4.8gr of win231. Shoot away! I did check for leading after 25-50rds the first time with a new bullet however just to be safe.

 

[billj888]

I've shot lots of lead in my G19. The barrel gets a thorough cleaning afterwards using the copper brush. On the subject of the guppy belly, my Lee resizer always takes it out and I have never lost a cartridge for that reason alone.