Green Card gun purchases

[Blackbeard]

IMO, going on a trip does not alter your residency. Residence is where you live, not where you are. I reside in Illinois. If I go across the river to Iowa to go shopping, I do not become a resident of Iowa. If I go on vacation to Europe, I don't become a resident of Europe while I'm there. When I come back home I'm still an Illinois resident and my residence has been continuous for 20+ years.

When they ask about 90 days continuous residence, they mean have you had any other address at any time during those 90 days. Do you have a house or apartment somewhere else that you live part of the time?

 

[everallm]

Six,

Oh I can't be bothered, your FFL is wrong, the law is available to read at the ATF, knock yourself out

 

[wishin]

If a person can be granted permanent resident status, establishes residence, pays rent, utilities, etc., contiuously and surreptiously for more than 90 days through a third party, and in the meantime goes to Libya for a 6 month terrorist training course, then returns and gets a firearms license, something's wrong. But, then again, he could have done the continuous 90 day thing by the book and then gone to Libya, or maybe done the 90 day residency after Libya! Maybe the law allows for that. If it does the law needs to be changed. Pretty stupid IMHO. I realize it's just as easy to lie about it on the application, so what's the answer?

A resident alien needs to be in compliance with the law, whatever that is. (Real lawyer enters here).

 

[docpadds]

I am an FFL and up until November last year was a GC holder. Trips out of the country for vacation and business do not alter your residency, they are just trips and not relocations. Its worded very vaguely really. Always had to do the usual (even when transferring to MYSELF!) with 3 months bills proving i have a residence in my name.

Since becoming a citizen i just ran a NICS on myself yesterday for a P-38 i bought from work and finally no residency requirement and no more delay, got a proceed immediately for the first time ever woohoo

 

[Six]

To maybe clarify some, here's an excerpt from BATFE Rulings 2004-1

http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2004-1.html


A Federal firearms licensee (FFL) may not lawfully transfer a firearm to a nonimmigrant alien who has not resided in a State continuously for at least 90 days immediately prior to the FFL conducting a National Instant Criminal Background Check system (NICS) check. ATF Rul. 2004-1

...

Moreover, for all non-U.S. citizens, NICS checks include a check of Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) databases. These databases generally contain records of when nonimmigrant aliens enter and exit the United States.

Accordingly, when a nonimmigrant alien attempts to receive a firearm from an FFL, the background check generally will show if the nonimmigrant alien has left the United States
in the preceding 90 days. ATF recognizes that some nonimmigrant aliens who temporarily leave the United States may have an intent to reside in a State within the United States, and are simply going on a trip abroad. However, ATF has determined
that evidence of a nonimmigrant alien leaving the country represents a break in residency that requires a subsequent 90-day residence in a State before the alien can lawfully purchase a firearm from an FFL.

Accordingly, if the ICE records show the nonimmigrant alien has left the United States in the preceding 90 days, NICS will tell the FFL to cancel the transaction because the 90 day residency requirement has not been met. The transaction is canceled (rather than denied) because, since the nonimmigrant alien did not meet the residency requirement, a NICS check was not appropriate. Further, a denial is not appropriate because the 90 day residency requirement is not a prohibited category under 18 U.S.C. 922(g) or (n), and so is not grounds for NICS denying a transaction.

So if a non-immigrant leaves the country, the 90 day period is reset. This is probably what the BATFE agent referred to when talking to my FFL.

 

[docpadds]

So if a non-immigrant leaves the country, the 90 day period is reset. This is probably what the BATFE agent referred to when talking to my FFL.

The difference between a permanent resident and a non-immigrant alien seems logical for those of us who are in that category but alas not everyone understands it.

 

[Gungnir]

So if a non-immigrant leaves the country, the 90 day period is reset. This is probably what the BATFE agent referred to when talking to my FFL.

Green Card = Immigrant Visa i.e. Use the US Citizen line at the airport entry (if it's the same as it used to be)

Non-Green card (H1, L1, etc.) = Non-Immigrant Visa. Use the foreign line at the airport entry.

This is where the problem lies, you're giving ATF regs for non-immigrants and green cards are not non-immigrants, they're immigrants.

 

[BigMoosie]

Gungnir

Your take makes complete sense. If you are a non-immigrant leaving the US you get a new admissions number when you reenter the country. If you are a GC'er your alien number doesn't change. The rules regarding residency must be different for GC'er and non-immigrants.

 

[GRIZ22]

I just spoke to my local ATF office, and was told that a trip out of the country doesn't break one's residency or reset the 90 day clock.

This is correct.

he or she has resided in a State for at least 90 days prior to the date of the sale."


If you live in PA and go to Atlantic City for a 3 day weekend does not mean you have relinguished residency in PA. By the same token if you are a truck driver that spends 9 out of 10 days on the road out of state does not mean you have broken your residence in your home state.

 

[Gungnir]

Gungnir

Your take makes complete sense. If you are a non-immigrant leaving the US you get a new admissions number when you reenter the country. If you are a GC'er your alien number doesn't change. The rules regarding residency must be different for GC'er and non-immigrants.

Also note that the USCIS also does not reset residency under any visa for vacations. Whether the ATF does or not is open to debate.

These are the responsibilities...

You may be found to have abandoned your permanent resident status if you:

* Move to another country intending to live there permanently.
* Remain outside of the US for more than one year without obtaining a reentry permit or returning resident visa. However in determining whether your status has been abandoned any length of absence from the US may be considered, even if it is less than one year.
* Remain outside of the US for more than two years after issuance of a reentry permit without obtaining a returning resident visa. However in determining whether your status has been abandoned any length of absence from the US may be considered, even if it is less than one year.
* Fail to file income tax returns while living outside of the US for any period.
* Declare yourself a “nonimmigrant” on your tax returns.

 

[dbarale]

Zero Knives,

My NICS checks are invariably delayed each time, I've only ever had one that got a "proceed" straight away. But I've never been denied.

Do you enter your SSN on the form? I always did and always got an instant green light. A friend who refused to do so was systematically delayed...

 

[BigMoosie]

dbarale,

I've always included my SSN, but it's never made a difference.

 

[PBinWA]

Even with a CPL/CHL, I've always had a wait. It's typically less than a day which is fine by me. It's still easier than all the hassles I had to deal with Canada.

Gungnir's definition seems accurate to me. I've only ever had one sporting goods store try to do the 90 day residency thing on me and they were clearly not aware of the difference between a Green Card and a non-immigrant visa.

I've had L1, TN, H1 visas and was able to purchase firearms with all of them. I had to jump through a few more hoops but it was not a problem in the end.

 

[deanpf]

***... Non-residents can get a firearm?!?

I thought that you had to be a legal citizen of the U.S. to buy a firearm.
This makes no sense when we have veterans that can't! :banghead:

By the way; Who are you people and where are you from?
Why not become a citizen if you want to enjoy the freedoms?

 

[BigMoosie]

deanpf,

I understand your rant. Non-residents can't buy firearms in this country, you have to either be a legal resident or a citizen. BTW I'm originally from England where the rights to own guns, even just for sporting purposes, have been trashed. I'm very glad I live here now.

 

[docpadds]

As a side note, the government has a habit of making it quite an ordeal sometimes to become a citizen. Because i arrived here 2 weeks before my 26th birthday (i got a special allowance from the INS due to my daughters birth) i was initially disqualified to become a citizen because i had not registered for selective service for those two weeks. Of course my original application never took that into account as we were going by the book and it took 6 months to get it all lined up etc....

Thankfully after much work with the INS I am not proud to be a citizen and enjoy all the rights, though i was an FFL long before i got my citizenship and still was just a green card holder

 

[Gungnir]

***... Non-residents can get a firearm?!?

I thought that you had to be a legal citizen of the U.S. to buy a firearm.
This makes no sense when we have veterans that can't!

By the way; Who are you people and where are you from?
Why not become a citizen if you want to enjoy the freedoms?

Because my shortsighted friend, if a freedom only applies to a citizen then it is a privilege, not an inalienable right. I'm as American as you are too, I just happen to have a birth certificate from a different country.

 

[deanpf]

Docpadds

First of all; congratulations for taking the time and effort to get your citizenship!!

But, I still can't believe: though i was an FFL long before i got my citizenship and still was just a green card holder. in this day and age of supposed "Homeland Security"!?!

 

[docpadds]

As a green card holder i had all the same rights and responsibilities as a citizen except for the ability to vote and jury service etc, a green card is a Permanent Resident card, meaning you can stay here the rest of your life as long as you dont do something that would disqualify you from staying (various law breaking etc).

Green card holders have to pay all the same taxes, have social security numbers, pay Medicare and all that and can even retire and get social security etc.... they just cant call themselves American and vote etc... And yes we can get licenses/permits etc just like a citizen can because legally we are no different. I still had to pass the background check and all that stuff.

Indeed as a Green card holder every 10 years or so we end up getting reviewed, we have a whole second government entity watching us. We actually get more scrutiny then citizens.... such as when buying a gun we have to prove residency and the INS is contacted during the NICS check to make sure our "A" number is valid....


Now a non-resident alien is a very different thing and not what the OP is in this thread. A Non-resident are people like students, visitors on long term visits but not intending to make their lives here etc... they have very different requirements for guns and would not be able to be a sole holder of an FFL.

 

[docnyt]

As a side note, the government has a habit of making it quite an ordeal sometimes to become a citizen. Because i arrived here 2 weeks before my 26th birthday (i got a special allowance from the INS due to my daughters birth) i was initially disqualified to become a citizen because i had not registered for selective service for those two weeks. Of course my original application never took that into account as we were going by the book and it took 6 months to get it all lined up etc....

Thankfully after much work with the INS I am not proud to be a citizen and enjoy all the rights, though i was an FFL long before i got my citizenship and still was just a green card holder

This would be funny if it wasn't worded so seriously. If it was so easy to apply and become a citizen, millions (yes, millions) of non-voting [read unrepresented], tax-paying, hard-working permanent residents would have done so already.

Interestingly, a permanent resident can join the military and become cannon fodder for our country, and still not be able to vote.

 

[docpadds]

non-voting [read unrepresented]

One of the final things that made me put the extra effort into getting the citizenship was a nagging desire to vote next time

 

[NMGonzo]

rental contract

utility bills

driver's license

Anything that documents that you have been a resident of the state for at least 90 days.

 

[duns]

There's physical presence, residence, and permanent residence. You were not physically present for 90 days. But the rule does not seem to relate to physical presence but to residency. I am not sure if you could claim to be a resident from the date you obtained your visa but you have definitely been a resident since you obtained your green card. For green card holders, residency does not stop when you leave the country (unless you are away for a long time without advance permission, I think it may be a year). So I think you are pretty safe.

 

[ML]

Outcome for my situation

I have a green card. I traveled abroad over Christmas. I purchased a firearm in January and got a NICS "proceed". At least in my case, the 90 days did not start over because I traveled abroad. This is as it should be according to the law.

I also wanted to say that I feel very privileged to be able to live in the US and I do not take it for granted. This is a wonderful country.

Finally, for those who worry about permanent residents (i.e., green card holders) being able to own firearms: Consider that one of the many requirements for even obtaining permanent residency is a thorough background check by the FBI, with fingerprints and all. It sometimes takes months for this background check to complete and it is more thorough than any background check most US citizens would ever go through. Therefore, it is generally quite likely that a green card holder has a clean background and generally does not pose a threat.

 

[wishin]

^^
Glad everything worked out. Since permanent residents receive the same scrutiny as U.S. citizens, I don't have a problem with y'all carrying.