Gun store what to do

[arcticap]

I think that the intent of a person's words can be easily misunderstood.
He may have meant "If asked, don't let them know that you're buying these for me to use".
That wouldn't involve any actual change in ownership of the guns.
The simple omission of the 2 words "to use" doesn't change what he meant to say, and simply using the guns doesn't require an actual change of ownership which is required for it to be a straw purchase.

 

[Sam1911]

I know this is probably going to sound like a really dim question, but I think I'm missing something, so I'll ask.

When I bought my pistol I had to apply for a pistol permit, have the background check done, be issued the permit, and then took that - along with my DL - to the gun shop to purchase. They kept the permit, and I also had to fill out several more pages of additional paperwork. Signatures everywhere, etc., etc.

So I don't understand how these people went in and purchased (the Ruger) at all, no matter which one of them it was doing it. Can someone fill me in, because I find the scenario, and "What would you do?" question an interesting one.

I guess "straw sale" has something to do with this.

Not sure I really understand what you're asking, but most states do not require anything like the level of prior approval, permits, background checks, etc. that North Carolina does.

In most states, a handgun purchase is a cash-and-carry sort of thing.

1) Stop in the gun shop.
2) Notice a gun you like.
3) Fill out the 4473 (maybe a state form too, depending on where you are).
4) Dealer makes the NICS call.
5) Pay for gun.
6) Go home with shiny new gun.

So the lady could certainly have seen a gun she liked and bought it right then.

But her husband cannot legally see a gun HE likes and have her buy it for him.

The straw sale issue arises when you have someone filling out the 4473, being cleared by NICS as not a "prohibited person," and buying the gun when they are actually not the real purchaser.

This is a pretty fine line in that (in most states) it is perfectly legal for them to buy that gun and then GIVE it to someone else as a gift, as a private transfer with no 4473 form or NICS check.

 

[Sam1911]

I think that the intent of a person's words can be easily misunderstood.

I can also see this side of the story. If, by chance, the man was there helping the lady to pick out two guns for her, he would have been perfectly right to caution her not to mistakenly indicate that they would be for him, knowing that this would (should) kill the sale.

Without knowing what, exactly, they were up to, it is hard to say for sure that they were breaking the law.

And, the gifting thing makes it very awkward. It would be legal for her to buy those two guns as a gift for him. Nothing in the law says that gift has to be a surprise, nor that the giftee cannot be present at the time of the purchase. And, if they share a bank account, even the usual "who's money is it question" goes right out the window.

 

[mgmorden]

This is a pretty fine line in that (in most states) it is perfectly legal for them to buy that gun and then GIVE it to someone else as a gift, as a private transfer with no 4473 form or NICS check.

Indeed, though (and I know that you're probably aware of this just mentioning it for those that might not ) it's generally still a violation of the law if you give a gun to someone who you know cannot legally own it. Even though you don't have to do a NICS check in a private sale, if you know that the person in question WOULDN'T pass one, then you are committing a crime even if you gift a gun to them.

Naturally that gets a bit iffy in that without having to actually do the check it's hard for someone to prove that you knew whether they'd pass or fail, but just stating the letter of the law. In obvious cases though (ie, you give a gun to a family member that is a known felon), you're probably SOL.

 

[X-Rap]

Another scenario could be similar to mine, years ago I would have my wife buy guns (to gift to me) simply because she had the resident DL for the state we lived in at the time. I kept the DL of my home state. It may not have followed the letter but I sure picked out a lot of nice gifts. Since we were in bordering states she only gave me handguns for presents.

 

[Sam1911]

it's generally still a violation of the law if you give a gun to someone who you know cannot legally own it.

You're exactly right! The rules for a gift are the same for any private sale -- you cannot give or sell a firearm to anyone you know or have reason to believe is a prohibited person.

The quirk about straw sales is that it is STILL illegal to purchase a firearm for (in the stead of) another person -- even if you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they would be a legal purchaser.

 

[Sam1911]

Another scenario could be similar to mine, years ago I would have my wife buy guns (to gift to me) simply because she had the resident DL for the state we lived in at the time. I kept the DL of my home state. It may not have followed the letter but I sure picked out a lot of nice gifts. Since we were in bordering states she only gave me handguns for presents.

If you were in that state with the intent of making your residence there, this is legal.

The bordering states issue hasn't been in effect since 1986, and only applied to sales from dealers, but wouldn't be an issue if you were residents of the same state.

If you weren't residents of the same state, in actuality, it would be illegal to transfer ANY firearm between yourselves, married or not.

Q: What constitutes residency in a State?The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present; the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one State and the member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby State to which he or she commutes each day, then the member has two States of residence and may purchase a firearm in either the State where the duty station is located or the State where the home is maintained. An alien who is legally in the United States is considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in that State and has resided in that State continuously for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale of the firearm. See also Item 5, “Sales to Aliens in the United States,” in the General Information section of this publication.

[18 U.S.C. 921(b), 922(a) (3), and 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.11]

Also, if you owned the property in that state, you would be good to go:

Q: May a person (who is not an alien) who resides in one State and owns property in another State purchase a handgun in either State?If a person maintains a home in 2 States and resides in both States for certain periods of the year, he or she may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State, purchase a handgun in that State. However, simply owning property in another State does not qualify the person to purchase a handgun in that State.

 

[Dbaggerly]

I agree I could have easily misunderstood. But the man got the cash out of his wallet for the woman to pay for the guns with. After reading all this I may just say something to the clerk if I am ever put in this situation again. I don't think I am going to report anything now.

 

[Nushif]

Maybe they were husband/wife and she controls the purse strings. Just a thought.

This happens a lot between me and my wife. Since both of us are on a first name basis (rather we're "the kids" to this couple) at our local store it really doesn't matter who does the paperwork.
They pretty much know that if the gun is an older Beretta it's nor for me, but rather a present. And if the gun is an oddball piece ... it's probably not for her. But in our case our home address is the same and we've both made repeat purchases using the same information we always do.
An outsider could easily misconstrue my wife doing the paperwork on any given gun while I continue to browse as a straw sale.

Which kinda raises a unique question ... if they were married, how does joint property affect straw purchase laws?

 

[X-Rap]

If you were in that state with the intent of making your residence there, this is legal.

The bordering states issue hasn't been in effect since 1986, and only applied to sales from dealers, but wouldn't be an issue if you were residents of the same state.

If you weren't residents of the same state, in actuality, it would be illegal to transfer ANY firearm between yourselves, married or not.

WE lived, worked, and had kids in the state for 5 yrs so I'd say we were residents.

So far as I know it has always been legal to buy long guns from FFL's in contiguous states plus being a resident by all descriptions aside from the DL I guess I had private sales covered as well.

We lived together for the entire time so we both carried the same status as residents aside from the DL.

My only point is there are more reasons than criminal intent for what the OP is questioning. I don't see it as uncommon for construction, military, students, and others who might move on a long term temporary basis to another state and fall under their residency criteria of which there are probably 50 different examples that are similar but vary in some ways no doubt.

 

[Sam1911]

So far as I know it has always been legal to buy long guns from FFL's in contiguous states plus being a resident by all descriptions aside from the DL I guess I had private sales covered as well.

In 1968 when the GCA mandated the FFL system it was written into the law that you could buy long-guns from dealers in contiguous states. In 1986, one of the things FOPA did right was to eliminate the contiguous state limitation.

Since 1968 it has not been legal to do any private sales over state lines.

 

[Ally]

Not sure I really understand what you're asking, but most states do not require anything like the level of prior approval, permits, background checks, etc. that North Carolina does.

In most states, a handgun purchase is a cash-and-carry sort of thing.

1) Stop in the gun shop.
2) Notice a gun you like.
3) Fill out the 4473 (maybe a state form too, depending on where you are).
4) Dealer makes the NICS call.
5) Pay for gun.
6) Go home with shiny new gun.

So the lady could certainly have seen a gun she liked and bought it right then.

But her husband cannot legally see a gun HE likes and have her buy it for him.

The straw sale issue arises when you have someone filling out the 4473, being cleared by NICS as not a "prohibited person," and buying the gun when they are actually not the real purchaser.

This is a pretty fine line in that (in most states) it is perfectly legal for them to buy that gun and then GIVE it to someone else as a gift, as a private transfer with no 4473 form or NICS check.

Thanks Sam1911. Yes, North Carolina handgun purchases must have a sheriff's permit issued before you can do anything more than look. I wasn't aware of how other states operate. But what you say makes sense and now I understand the issue.

FWIW, I probably would have quietly pulled an employee aside and told him he should re-evaluate that purchase. The last thing I'd want in my community is another potential BG with illegally obtained guns.

 

[X-Rap]

In 1968 when the GCA mandated the FFL system it was written into the law that you could buy long-guns from dealers in contiguous states. In 1986, one of the things FOPA did right was to eliminate the contiguous state limitation.

Since 1968 it has not been legal to do any private sales over state lines.

Sam I think I know what you are saying but it doesn't read that way, did you mean
you could not buy long-guns from dealers in contiguous states?

 

[hAkron]

I'm kind of curious about this, if my wife expressed an interest in getting her own gun, my initial reaction is that I would take her to the gun store, help her pick something out and I'd probably fill out the paperwork and put it on my credit card assuming the gun would be jointly owned by both of us. I would probably brief her that if anybody asks at the store that the gun is for me so that there wouldn't be a hassle when she filled out the form, but I paid the bill. Would there honestly be anything wrong with that situation? Assuming both of us were legally allowed to own a firearm?

 

[X-Rap]

IMO it would be how you answered the simple question of who it is for at the time of purchase. If you say it is a gift for my beautiful wife it seems that under the law it would be legal, it's a thin line and one best done alone since saying you are gifting with both in the store leaves one asking why not have her fill out the papers.

In my case at the time I believe both my wife and I were legal residents but I lacked the ID, for us it was clear what we needed to do to have her gift me the gun before we entered the store and since I had bought numerous long guns from the stores they had no worries about either of us.
They were not following the letter of the law but certainly the intent.

 

[Sam1911]

Sam I think I know what you are saying but it doesn't read that way, did you mean
you could not buy long-guns from dealers in contiguous states?

Between 1968 and 1986 it was only legal to buy long-guns out of state from dealers in states that were adjacent to your state of residence.

 

[X-Rap]

So now they no longer have to be adjacent states? That is good news that I didn't know.

 

[rhodco]

What can you say? That you suspect the same thing as the clerk obviously does? What difference does that make? It's a transaction that does not involve you. Unless you are a LEO, it's none of your business. The clerk has the decision to make of whether or not to do the transaction. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions ans suspicions, but you can't prove anything. She could buy all that and "loan" it to her boyfriend/husband/whatever and still not be breaking any laws unless he is a known felon. Even then, the only person with a chargable offense to worry about is her. It's ultimately her responsibility and her decision.

 

[Sam1911]

So now they no longer have to be adjacent states? That is good news that I didn't know.

That's correct!

 

[hermannr]

I recently purchased a gun for my wife. We looked in his store, discussed it with the owner (very small shop). He knew I was purchasing it for my wife, it was no straw sale. We had asked earlier for a particular model, and if/when he had one available we were interested in looking at it. My wife is so squeeky clean, in her 62 years she hasn't even had a parking ticket, let alone a moving violation.

I don't know what the big flap is? Personally, I do not like other people in my business, and because of that I stay out of other people's business. How many of you have forgotten that freedom is allowing the other guy to do his thing??? If you want to be free, you have to allow the other guy be free.

If a store owner decides to sell, that is his business. He has to run a check on the purchaser, if the check comes back clean, there should be no problem. If that person that made the purchase then violates the law, that is their problem, not yours, or the stores. I fthe purchase really smelled bad to him, I think the store owner would have said something.

 

[NavyLCDR]

In my case at the time I believe both my wife and I were legal residents but I lacked the ID, for us it was clear what we needed to do to have her gift me the gun before we entered the store and since I had bought numerous long guns from the stores they had no worries about either of us.
They were not following the letter of the law but certainly the intent.

and add hermannr too ^^^^

I too have done exactly the same thing. Being active duty military, I can buy handguns from FFL's in the state I have permanent orders to. So... stationed in Oklahoma, with both my wife (then) and myself maintaining Wyoming driver's licenses, if she wanted a certain handgun, I would purchase the handgun with my military ID card and orders, pay for it with a check that came out of our joint checking account and give her the handgun as a gift. All completely 100% legal. Every time, on three separate occassions at three different stores she even looked at all the guns in the gun store and picked out what she wanted. There is no law against a person picking out their own gift.

The gift was perfectly legal to give to her because she was not prohibited, and I knew she was also an Oklahoma state resident because she resided with me in the same house in Oklahoma.

Now, granted, in none of the stores we bought handguns in (and there were three separate stores) at any time did we have covert conversations, "Shhhh.... don't tell them we are doing this." It was simply, "This is my wife, I want to buy a gun for her as a gift." I don't think the situation the OP witnessed, though, was on the level because of the guy's comment, "Don't tell them you are buying these guns for me." and the fact that even as an out of state resident he would be able to buy the AR-15.... just like my wife did in Oklahoma using her Wyoming driver's license.

 

[mgregg85]

The sad part is, even if you stopped the sale it wouldn't matter. The couple would just go on to the next store and be smarter about it.

 

[xfyrfiter]

I will most of the time have my wife do the paperwork, because she will get passed on the NICS check, and since I have a ccw permit I will almost always be delayed. Makes no sense at all, but has happened three times now. Makes me angry at our stupid laws.

 

[Sam1911]

I will most of the time have my wife do the paperwork, because she will get passed on the NICS check, and since I have a ccw permit I will almost always be delayed. Makes no sense at all, but has happened three times now. Makes me angry at our stupid laws.

Uh, that's not even a grey area. That's just blatantly illegal. Having your wife purchase a gun because you have trouble with NICS is about as much of a straw purchase as you can get.

 

[Black Butte]

If the facts are accurate as you have relayed them, you did the wrong thing by not speaking up.