Gun vs. Knife

Status
Not open for further replies.
Lots of good advice here!

I think it's worth saying that a knife defense is a fistfight with grappling, only the fist is a knife.
Very, very hard to defend or defeat…and you must concentrate on the knife hand. It sucks.

I know the basic moves, but I also know that you usually only get one try at them.

Run first, shoot if you can. Learn to dance.
If you're trapped/unarmed go for the arm and pray because if he goes low, he's got your core.
.
 
Not to give away too much of stuff my Silat teacher reserves for people he knows well...

In any fight, especially one involving knives, you have to cover your high line and your low line. If all your eggs are in one basket you're in danger.
 
I personally would rather face off with a pit bull intent on attacking me then someone with even moderate knife skills. And that doesn't change if I have a gun a knife or my bare hands.

People in general tend to underestimate knives as weapons for some reason. I guess they forget the fact that for many thousands of years a simple shaprened piece of metal has killed very many people. Whether it be a knife dagger sword or spear. In some situations a knife is actually preferable to a gun. Train yourself to use your guns, but also train yourself to use a knife and how to defend agianst it.
 
Unarmed skills first and foremost. Protect the core, deflect if possible and creat time and distance to get to a weapon if possible. We need to negate if possible or minimize at the very least taking hits to our bodies core. If you take a hit to the core, no matter what happens after that, you are likely not going to make it in a knife attack.

The link takes you to discussion of the "Collapsing Startle Respnse" where you are unarmed initially under attack by knives or it could be fists.

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172&highlight=startle+response

The pic shows the position under startle for a left handed opponents "entry". You are protecting the bodies core, covering the high and low line. The arms/hands can sweep entries away when contact is made, protecting the core and then there are other things that must be done, of course.

Protecting the core, not reaching out in defense, and why you have to do so is explained in the linked article.

Brownie
 

Attachments

  • CSR 2.jpg
    CSR 2.jpg
    38.6 KB · Views: 124
Last edited:
The middle picture is a US Marshal who was jumped from behind by someone in a bar with a large knife. He didn't have a chance to defend himself, but the perp was shot - but not killed by his partner.

Not sure about the origin of the other pictures.
 
Unarmed skills first and foremost. Protect the core, deflect if possible and creat time and distance to get to a weapon if possible. We need to negate if possible or minimize at the very least taking hits to our bodies core. If you take a hit to the core, no matter what happens after that, you are likely not going to make it in a knife attack.

I agree.
Everybody's got their own style and here's part of mine for retention and core (heart) cover:

Dsc03089.jpg
.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong -- gun v. knife and Tueller Drill threads typically assume a) perp has knife in hand, blade extended, with murderous intent and b) cop has pistol in Level III retention holster and is at conversational distance.

So, why limit these discussions/scenarios to a knife? Why not a brick? Vial of acid? Garrot? Karate chop to the throat? Roundhouse right to the jaw? All can knock you on your butt and cause severe/fatal physical damage.

If you're going to allow some stranger to get within striking distance, of course you're WAAAY behind the curve, no matter the weapon.

The knife is a contact weapon. The gun is not. If you can create and maintain distance for the 2-3 seconds it takes you to draw your firearm, then empty it into the target, I think you'll be doing well.

And hello to Brownie, whose knife defense class I took some years ago at the S&W Academy.
 
My uncle once told me, "Never bring just a knife to a gun fight. But ALWAYS bring a knife."

If you are in a position to decide what to bring to a particular fight. Go somewhere else.
 
My first Silat and firearms teacher quoted the wisdom of his grandfather:

"Boy, if you're going to carry a gun carry two and a big knife. If you don't carry a gun at least have a .25 automatic. And if you need a gun to go into that bar don't go into that bar."
 
Originally Posted By SkyGuy

I'm responding because you definitely need a clue.

In close encounters the knife has the advantage. It doesn't run out of ammo or jam. Every slash or stab is the same as a bullet wound. Quick draw will be met with stabs or slashes good enough to bleed you out...quick.

Learn to run, dodge, jump, evade, etc. Use obstacles as interference. Only fight if you're cornered.

A gun is not a talisman!

You need to read more carefully. I said if someone jumps you by surprise with a knife (no chance to draw), knife will kill gun, and vice versus. What you also missed out on my post was: if shooter is able to draw his weapon, the chances for the guy with the knife are very very slim. It all comes down to this: who's more likely to walk away (with injuries or no injuries) and in a scenario where the guy is able to draw his gun (yes he might still get cut but.. knife guy is dead). I can empty a whole mag for every step or two you take, and most my shots will be on target at close ranges....

Yes, guns runs out of ammo. But since it would be a close quarter situation, running out of ammo is not a big factor since close quarter = bigger target. And yes again, a gun jams. But you gotta be real unlucky... neither one of my Beretta's has jammed on me, except after 150 rounds or so without cleaning. And no, a good knife stab is not as a bullet wound; it is deadlier.

Oh yeah, when you got somone with a knife trying to kill you, you don't run away (your just giving your back to him). The best course of action is a tactical retreat: evading and the use of your surroundings untill you are able to respond. But if you decide to run, you better hope you're faster than him....

I think it's fair to say I got my clues straight....
 
sicario103 said:
if shooter is able to draw his weapon, the chances for the guy with the knife are very very slim.

Instead of assuming you've never practiced this with a partner let me ask instead, have you done any drills with a partner that were full speed to get the needed realism? What techniques were used? Did the guy with the knife pump you or did he slash wildly?

I ask because I have done those drills with gun and knife. I've done them with LEs and "well trained" gun enthusists . I even did it once with an angry sheriff's deputy who was convinced that it was all BS and that gun beats knife every time ("I'll just shoot you in the haid!" :banghead: ). It isn't and he didn't.

If you've not done it, then you should.
 
sicario103, Give the knife the respect it deserves.

Handguns are marginally effective at best. Generally, victims of handgun wounds, unless shot in the head, will survive their wounds.

Knife wounds do things handgun bullets can't. They dismember, eviscerate, sever, and make body parts stop working when the muscles that move them are sliced apart.


Close quarters doesn't make your chance of hitting your target any easier. In fact, the advantage the handgun gives us, distance, is negated by proximity. Like HSO said, you need to try some drills. A knife is a deadly, gruesome, extremely effective weapon. The wounds it can inflict are much more debilitating than nearly any handgun round.


Your faith in your handgun as a fight stopper is fantasy.
 
Full speed drills?
Yeah.

I was handed a Taurus version of Beretta 92. Checked umpteen times because I felt really odd with a real gun , no mag and supposed to say "bang".

Rubber knife from dime store. I am allowed to have this Taurus at my side, since we could not find the holster for the durn thing.

"Go", I get to retention and I did not get "cut" or "stabbed" right away. Instead the slide was snatched off the gun, and when I went :eek: seeing him with top of gun, then he "got me".

"Can I watch someone else do that? I want to see how bad I goofed up to end up dead".

That was not a good day for me. I was supposed to be the BG with knife later.
That 60 y/o lady knocked my knife away with a cane and the next thing I knew I was on the floor.
I missed the mat. Hardwood is called "hard" for a reason.

:eek:

Just because I messed up, does not mean I did not learn something.

I learned to never sit on front row when invited to watch something.
Really, just asked to come watch and ...some Mentors I had, and I 'thought' I was just going to watch.

I mean I did have butterflies on my forehead and other injuries from an incident [ real life one, and I came out on top of that one] , so I never thought I would get volunteered.

"You have been through something and handled it fine, lesson today was - just because you handled something best could, and got lucky, does not mean the next time it will occur that way. This was to humble you, and make you get out of any pink clouds, so your awareness and alertness is back to what is should be".

Mentors were correct. Since I was not 100 %, I was more vulnerable, and needed to be aware of that, and take even more precautions.

After my "fall", them first aid lessons were for real, and I was the live person "dummy" getting first aid, and allowing folks to learn first hand what I needed ...again.
 
sicario103
Now if you have a chance to draw your gun (assuming you react), knife training or not, gun kills knife.
Of course, if you've got the drop, move and shoot him!

BUT....even in that scenario there are no absolutes, only probabilities.

Gunshots don't necessarily stop an adrenaline powered, determined, drugged or maniacal attacker.....who can smother your gun and stab you repeatedly before he bleeds out (15 seconds).
.
 
Consider the posssible outcomes that can result from being shot with a handgun, what actions are possible:

1. Disengage and leave the area - otherwise known as "run away".
2. Disengage, but not retreat.
3. Become incapacitated, and for some physical, or myriad of physical and psychological reasons, be unable to effectively continue an attack.
4. Continue doing whatever he was doing before being shot.


Immediate physical incapacitation is unlikely from a handgun, or series of, handgun wounds. Much of the factors that contribute to ending a fight are psychological, which none of these silly hypothetical ratings of handgun stops consider. Nor can they; it is impossible to divorce this factor from any sort of measurement. Nonetheless, it is a factor, and contributes to influencing a VCA's actions.

BUT, to have influence, the VCA must notice he has been shot. Very often a person shot with a handgun reports they did not know they were shot, or recalls the shot as something other than what it is. The brain registers the wound as maybe a punch, or a strike, or nothing at all.

It doesn't even take a "adrenaline powered, determined, drugged or maniacal attacker". We can even find reports of bystanders who report being shot had no immediate effect, and they did not notice the wound until some factor of other circumstances caused them to notice the injury.


Those who seriously study confrontations resulting in handgun injuries find the overwhelming response to being shot is the actor continues doing whatever he was doing immediately preceeding being shot. Those with an agenda come to differing conclusions. But, in the immediate aftermath of being struck with handgun rounds, unless the wounds happen to cause an injury serious enough to physically interfere with the body's ability to act, there is no response from the victim.


SM, that trick in your story you described is theatrical. No doubt it was done for the amazement of the spectators. You have mentioned before that you have not attended any formal training. 8 hours of handgun retention training imparts tools to handle such a scenario. This interaction does however show us that someone without rentention skills can be overcome by a knife encounter, and that the advantage the handgun gives us, Distance, is negated by Proximity. It does not take someone who has spent countless hours perfecting disarms for showmanship to achieve a similar result and remove our ability, in some fashion, from bringing a handgun to bear in a fight.

So far, this has been discussed as a one on one fight. Rarely are confrontations so evenly matched. The + One rule applies. When two or more VCAs begin vying for your control of a handgun, not necessarily to take it away, but simply to preclude your ability to bring it to bear, the odds for even completely untrained attackers increase.
 
BullfrogKen,

I REALLY appreciate your post! Thank You!

You picked up something nobody else has so far in my post. :)

SM, that trick in your story you described is theatrical. No doubt it was done for the amazement of the spectators.

Yes. It was done to dispell myths, on Purpose. Known training instructor -no. Known school of instruction - again no. These persons, and others are qualified persons, and have BTDT and some trained by Uncle Sam and other Folks.

I had been in a situation, I had evaded, I was outnumberd. I was banged, bruised, and weak arm in a sling, weak side shoulder messed up, and this was before my knees had surgery. Meaning my weak knee was giving me fits again, and my strong side knee was not doing so great either. I had that double knee surgery 13 years ago, and knees better than ever.

I was there as an "example" of one whom had evaded when outnumbered. I was there to learn, to observe. One that had not paid any attention to TV or Movies, instead, fell back onto previous lessons and applied "Adapt, Improvise, Overcome".

Mentors wanted me observe and learn, they also wanted to make sure I "got back on that horse", and being in attendence would be good for me, and I could be a "learning tool" for others.

Just did not plan on getting my butt out front of folks was all.

"If you have a gun, you are safe, no matter if fit and whole , or handicapped", one person said.

Get the fella all banged up, hobbling and all out front and show the folks how REAL life plays out was my Mentors solution. I just happen to fit the guinea pig requirements real well. :)

I can look back and laugh now, at the time it hurt like heck, and taped up ribs at the time prevented me from wanting to cough, laugh or hiccup.

I looked like easy prey, and was. Snatching the gun was theatrical, it did get that person whom said "a gun is a solution to everything" attention.

Now one is supposed to use a cane on the side needing assistance. My weak was banged up, and I could not use the cane with weak side arm and hand.

"Reaction can be quicker than action" and I was able to use strong side and pretty fast put the handle of cane to Adam's apple, Instructor with knife went back and then I evaded off the mat as I was supposed to do.

Just I 'got into it" a bit much and crashed and burned into folding chairs, table, and whatever else I could "hobbling" as I was, and I can mess of things when I want to.

"Not the prettiest fall we have seen you take, and you are bleeding on the floor again".

Wheeze, wince, pain, I am to laying here a second and get pissed if you don't mind.

That is when we an unscheduled first aid lesson...since I was bleeding again, and handy and all...why not I play dummy again? ;)


No I will not get into how I got banged up, not relevant to thread, except to say I was with a lady partner, and we were outnumbered and I was playing blocker to allow her more time to get out, with mdse. It worked...
 
"Knife and you've got a Simunition gun there are very few realistic scenarios that the guy with the gun will survive...

I disagree with that.

While I would agree that avoiding getting cut is difficult, if not impossible, surviving is another thing entirely. The human body is pretty tough, and it is actually pretty difficult to kill someone instantly with a bullet, let alone a knife.

A knife attacker is effective only when in stab/slash range, but what happens when they can't get that range? Do they throw the knife? A handgun offers a much greater advantage simply because it is not limited to the range restrictions as are knives.

While it is true that the knife wielder will more than likely cut the handgun wielder, it is also true that the handgun wielder will also SHOOT the knife wielder.

I'll take colt over ginsu every time...
 
SM, I believe I would have had to decline that invitation to be abused. Training while injured, which is permitted to continue until it produces more injuries, has no place, nor can be considered training. It teaches nothing, and it is unconscionable that your mentors would permit it.

I've seen people in positions of authority that felt we should train until it hurt, in order to introduce "realism" and find ways to train through it. I felt like shooting those "hard-@sses" to prove the point that training which produces injuries is counterproductive.


I would have politely declined, and invited the loudmouth braggart to take my place.
 
The following article is both sobering and informative...and helps to reinforce my opinion that 'avoidance' (however) is the best tactic in a close-up knife encounter.
It has sound advice and is 'definitely' worth the read...especially for the unbelievers and the uninformed.

EDGED WEAPON TACTICS AND COUNTER TACTICS:
Edged weapons are amongst the most ancient of implements used by human adversaries engaged in interpersonal conflict. Their use tends to culminate in the premature extinction of one and sometimes both parties. Unfortunately the potential lethality of the blade is not always realized or taken into account when confronting a knife-wielding attacker. There is a commonly held view that a person armed with a knife is less dangerous than a person armed with a firearm. The truth is that within their practical ranges both weapons are capable of fatal life stopping wounds. Some interesting facts include:

U.K. studies:
 Edged weapon assaults are the most commonly used weapon for killing people (7 in 20)
 In half the incidents of muggings on men the offender is armed with a sharp instrument

North America:
 One in three chance that if faced with a subject who had an edged weapon, you will be attacked and injured
 Attacks with edged weapons usually occur when you least expect them
 In Victoria BC Canada, our police department has found an increase of 35% in the number of calls that they deal with where an edged weapon was involved
 In 1994, out of the 7 murders in Victoria, 6 were committed with knives
 The majority of “street” type people carry some kind of edged weapon be it legal or illegal.

FBI Statistics:
 Edged weapon attackers are responsible for 3% of all armed attacks of police
 Firearm attacks account for 4%
 Both of the above stats represent fatalities
 Subject shot, 10% die from their wounds
 Subjects stabbed, 30% die from their wounds

Calibre Press:
 Since 1980 the number of people routinely carrying knives in North America has increased by 92%
I have personally gathered research form around the world on edged weapon assaults and the following facts emerged during my research:
 The most popular assault technique utilized by the attacker was found to be the hammer strike – either straight down or diagonally
 The victim tends to squat in an effort to take a path which offers perceived escape
 Many people seldom saw the edged weapon that penetrated their body. They failed to recognize the danger cues due to faulty perception
 Knife attacks were found to be exceptionally accurate, to penetrate deeper that some bullets, creating remarkable permanent cavities and rip through numerous organs in one stroke
 In reality, within their respective ranges, knives are superior to firearms as far as lethality is concerned

Within its range, a Knife:
 Never runs out of ammunition
 Never jams
 Never misfires
 Rarely misses target
 Cuts bone, tendon, muscles, arteries, veins with one thrust
 Can bring about sudden shock, pain, and extended wound channels
 It has better stopping capabilities
 Is psychological defeating
 Has superior concealment capabilities
 It occupies a permanent wound channel until extracted, at which time, if the blade is withdrawn from a lung, consciousness is rapidly lost
I have also attended several autopsies involving edged weapon deaths and in speaking with Forensic Pathologists have found the following medical facts:
 Typical death of a stab wound in homicide cases is 1 inch to 1.5 inches through the rib cage
 In most edged weapon attacks the victim received multiple knife wounds. The usual cause of death are usually the last few wounds of the overall attack
 Even short bladed knives can penetrate the abdomen by 8-10cm
 3cm allows penetration of the ribs
 4cm allows penetration of the heart
 because of the small surface area of a knife, the amount of force per unit area is TONS per square inch

The above noted information shows the importance of training to deal with such encounters. A person’s ability to deal with such situations will be based on his/her TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE. Experience is something not easily acquired, proper training can save lives by preparing you both physically and psychologically. Remember that most edged weapon assaults take place unexpectedly and so quickly that it is not unusual for the defender not to have time to realize that an edged weapon is involved. The attacker who possess an edged weapon usually does not want to convey in any way that he has one, and will usually conceal it until such time as he can deploy it quickly against you. Although a reality, it is a rarity that the attacker will produce his weapon in full view prior to an assault.

As I continued to conduct me research into edged weapon assaults on both police officers and the general public I was also able to identify three common denominators that seem to be present in many edged weapon assaults:
 In most edged weapon attacks, the defender is already involved in the physical encounter way before he or she even has time to realize that a knife is being used
 Most defenders see a thrust or slice with a knife as just another punch or kick and not an edged weapon assault
 It was difficult if not impossible for the defender to differentiate between an attack with an edged weapon or an attack using hands of feet. This was especially true when the defender was not aware from the start of the assault , that the attacker had a knife

I’m a big believer in, “don’t tell me, show me” so in early 1992 I conducted an empirical video research study. I had 85 police officers participate in a scenario based training session where unknown to them, they would be attacked with a knife. The attacker, who was dressed in a combatives suit, was told that during mid way of the contact, they were to pull a knife that they had been concealing, flash it directly at the officer saying “I’m going to kill you pig” and then engage the officer physically.
The results were remarkable:
· 3/85 saw the knife prior to contact
· 10/85 realized that they were being stabbed repeatedly during the scenario
· 72/85 did not realize that they were being assaulted with a knife until the scenario was over, and the officers were advised to look at their uniforms to see the simulated thrusts and slices left behind by the chalked training knives

When I reviewed the hours of video tape of the above noted scenarios, I also made several other interesting observations in how the majority of officers reacted to the attacks:
 most attempted to disengage from the attacker by backing away from the threat. This usually resulted in the attacker closing quite quickly with their victim
 Those officers that did engage the threat immediately, proceeded to block the initial strike of the attacker and then immediately began to grapple with the attacker using elbows and knee strikes, but FAILED TO CONTROL THE DELIVERY SYSTEM RESULTING IN A LARGE NUMBER OF LETHAL BLOWS WITH THE KNIFE.
 Most of the scenarios ended up on the ground

After making these observations, I began to ask myself why I was seeing the above noted reactions. In my research I had the opportunity to read an article authored by Bruce Siddle and Dr. Hal Breedlove entitled “ Survival Stress Reaction” .

In this article Siddle and Breedlove stated:
“ research by numerous studies provide two clear messages why people will place themselves in bad tactical situations. The common phenomena of backing away under survival stress results from the visual systems deterioration of the peripheral field to attain more information regarding threat stimulus. Since the brain is demanding more information to deal with the threat, he officer will invariably retreat from the threat to widen the peripheral field.
Secondly, the brains normal ability to process (analyze and evaluate) a wide range of information quickly is focused to specific items. Therefore, additional cues, which would normally be processed, are lost. This explains why people can not remember seeing or identifying specific facts which were relatively close to the threat.”

The above noted research by Siddle and Breedlove not only confirmed my findings but also answered why our officers were acting they were. It also explains why one officer, who had actually caught the attackers knife hand with both of his hands and was looking directly at the knife, stated “I didn’t see any knife” It was not until I showed the video that he believed there was a knife.

Based upon all the above noted observations, I began to research a number of edged weapon defensive tactics programs that were being offered to both police officers and citizen. I attended several programs across North America and in doing so, I found that many of the programs although practical in a training environment, were totally unrealistic for the reality of the street.

Many of these programs had several pitfalls:
· Most assumed the defender knew that the attacker possessed an edged weapon. ( what good is this assumption when we know that the majority of attacks with knives the defender did not know the attacker had a knife)
· Most techniques being taught were too complicated for people to remember (too many fine complex motor skills which we know do not translate when survival stress clicks in no matter how well trained)
· Most techniques neglected the not so frozen limbs which the attacker still possessed and would use if not neutralized.
· Most techniques being taught concentrated on controlling the knife hand rather than the delivery system. ( the hand moves faster than the eye in a spontaneous attack. As well if cut, blood is a very good lubricant and makes grabbing the knife hand, even with two hands, very difficult if not impossible. To replicate this, use some baby oil during your next edged weapon defensive tactics class)
· Most techniques being taught were designed to be used against a static (stemming) attack.. (Real knife assaults are not static but fluid and dynamic in nature)
· Most techniques were designed to be used against what I call wide “Hollywood” motion attacks. ( most knife assaults are short and multiple in nature)
· Most techniques were designed to be used under perfect conditions of the dojo or training studio. ( most would not work if fighting/rolling around in the mud, the blood, and the beer of an “open” rather than “closed” environment.

When looking for a Realistic Edged Weapon Tactics/Counter tactics Program you should ensure that you pick one that teaches:
1) AWARENESS STRATEGIES
2) REALISTIC HANDS ON COUNTER TACTICS WHICH FOLLOW THE S.A.F.E. PRINCIPAL. Simple Adaptable Fast and Effective
Awareness strategies start with the above noted information on stats and facts.

TYPES OF ATTACKERS:
There are two types of attackers that you will have to deal with, Skilled and unskilled. Although it is a nicety to know the difference between the two types of attacker, it is very important to remember that both are as equally as dangerous. Remember it is not the skill level of the attacker but rather the desperation factor that makes him so dangerous. As well, in a dynamic spontaneous assault involving an edged weapon, you will probably not have the time to assess your attackers skill level. This is why it is so important that any counter edged weapon program you use, it must work against both the unskilled and skilled attacker. I say:
IF THE SUBJECT PULLS A KNIFE CONSIDER HIM TO BE AN EXPERT

The best defense against an edged weapon is to not get into one in the first place. Watch for edged weapons, this means watching a person’s hands. I have stated for years that the only assumption I make in a fight is that the person I an dealing with may have a concealed weapon that I don’t see.
By being aware of the ways in which a person may deploy an edged weapon may give you the advantage to with the encounter. This means, get to know the technology available. Visit you local knife/ army surplus stores and see what is available. Also look into how this technology is deployed:
 Listen for the unsnapping of a button on a knife case
 Listen for Velcro opening
 Listen for the click of a lock blade
 Movement behind the back
 Drawing motion of the arm/elbow
 The way in which a person may be packing a visible knife. A buck knife case that is holstered with the snap opening down lets you know that this person had thought about using gravity to deploy the knife quickly.
 Palming

In my program I have over 50 slides of actual knife wounds that I also show to further bring to light the issue of awareness and respect for the blade.

TYPES OF GRIPS AND STROKES:
There are as many gripes and strokes as there are people carrying knives. Is it important to know and understand how an attacker may be holding an edged weapon when it comes to defense. NO !!!!! I believe that the only important thing for you to understand is that the attacker is attacking with a knife. Again, in a dynamic and spontaneous knife attack you will likely not know how the weapon is being held. So if you have learned a system of edged weapon defense that is dependant upon how the knife is being held, good luck using it in the real word !!!!!

WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU DO GET CUT:
 Do not panic
 Consciously make yourself breath slower (autogenic breathing)
 Inspect yourself and look for injuries seen and more importantly not seen
 Apply direct pressure to wounds
 If injury are to limbs, elevate if possible
 If you have a chest wound, seal it and protect your airway in case you go unconscious, you don’t want to drown in your own blood
 If you have a punctured lung, exhale first and use an air tight article to cover and seal the wound
 Mental commitment “ I’m going to Live”

PRINCIPALS OF PAT, WRAP, AND ATTACK EDGED WEAPON COUNTER TACTICS:
1) Respect the blade The person who attacks with an edged weapon has two incredible advantages.
 PSYCHOLOGICAL: has chosen to use the weapon ruthlessly
 PHYSICAL: usually has first strike advantage

Again remember, it is the desperation factor and not the technical skill alone that makes a person armed with an edged weapon so dangerous.

2) Expect to get cut. You will likely get cut, bleed, may or may not feel pain. A program that teaches students not to expect this fact is NEGLIGENT. Your goal is to “WIN” notice I use the word “WIN” and not “SURVIVE”. Words are very powerful. The word SURVIVE is no different than the word “TRY”. Both of these words to the subconscious mind mean “FAILURE”. Our goal is to WIN, survival is a by-product of winning.

3) Neutralize the line of attack. In any kind of combatives it is important to get you body of the line of attack.. Remember in a knife fight you will get cut and stuck, the secret is to limit the amount/degree of this damage. Unlike a fist fight, you can not stand there and take multiple blows with a knife.

4) Control the delivery system. In the system of Pat Wrap and Attack we do not play the knife hand but rather the delivery system ( arm/elbow) In hockey do you play the puck or do you play the man. You play the man why, the puck moves to quick. In a knife fight don’t visually lock onto the knife hand it moves far to fast when compared to the arm/elbow. We also do not attempt to grab the knife hand in a dynamic situation for the reasons that I mentioned earlier. Small target, slippery when blood is present Remember than most edged weapon deaths are associated with serious multiple blows. Why, person failed to control the delivery system. The delivery system is the arm (lever), if we can control the lever we control the blade. The only exception to this rule is in a static knife hold up where the knife hand is not moving and can easily be controlled with two hands.

5) Attack the attack.. I believe that so long as the attacker has the opportunity to continue his attack, he has a strong tactical advantage, with a strong psychological advantage as well. Both of these advantages must be neutralized as soon as possible by throwing the attacker on the defensive.

I have been involved in FOUR separate edged weapon attacks which I “won”, and I have had one person die in my arms from an edged weapon attack.. There are a lot of edged weapon defense programs out there that are designed to get you KILLED because they do not deal with reality. Do your homework. I have attempted to summarize some of the reasons for the development of my 8 hr Pat. Wrap, and Attack system in this post. This system is being used around the world and has saved many lives. Knowledge and the understanding of that knowledge is power.

Strength and Honor
Darren Laur
Integrated Street Combatives
Victoria, BC
Canada

source: http://members.shaw.ca/tmanifold/edged_weapon.htm
 
what are you prepared to do

Having watched and delivered several stabbing and shooting victims to one of the best trauma centers in the nation I'll relate what I've observed. most these folks were untrained combatants by the way who don't use defense ammo...:)....

1. folks that are slashed are gonna survive......an arterial wound or shock (hypovolemia) are the only exceptions.....medics are gonna go with two large bore IV's and start patching holes and the subjects Blood Pressure will come right back up.
2. folks that are stabbed (moderate to deep puncture) in the thoracic/abdominal region are gonna die 80% or better. The wounds are difficult to seal. if the stab penetrated into a body cavity even if you seal the exterior the interior keeps right on a fillin'. If the cavity punctured is the one surrounding the lungs you get a pneumothorax and lungs deflate.....really nasty....
3. survival rate for folks that are shot is better. 60% of the time if shot in the thoracic/abdominal region. Shots to the chest cavity will usually do folks in if they puncture a lung same as in #2. Most folks don't aim in times of crisis so shots often hit non critical areas. Survival rate is 90-95% for shots to the arms, legs, and outermost areas of the body (barring the head of course).

distance is your friend if your a non combatant........but many of these folks get stabbed in the back....and front....and sides.... so running may or may not be your best move.
 
Someone touched upon this much ealier in this thread. Best way to survive a knife attack is to protect your safe perimeter. Once someone is inside that you are in trouble. I have been in knife attacks, one I was able to disarm, the second I did not know I was attacked until after it was over. Experienced people who attack you with knives will not telegraph the attack. They will probably not slash, and they will be inside your safety zone prior to the attack. Their attack is usually simular to a linebacker trying to knock you on your a$$. They drive straight in and punch or pump, and continue to do so. You will be driven backwards with limitted recourse to defend. On most occasions you will only have time to defend with what is in your hands at the time, and it will be a violent engagement. This has been my experience and that of some of my friends. Yours may be different, but I doubt that you will have time to draw or pull a knife prior to the initial attack.
Jim
 
I never said a knife was not deadly. I'm sure I wrote somewhere on this thread that a knife stab is deadlier than a bullet.

Like I've said numerous times in my prior replies: If somone's got the drop on you no matter what they are carrying; a gun, a knife, a rock or a toothpick... more than likely you will lose (or at least get poked- toothpick).

And yes, I have done all types of training (drills, simunition and live ammo), vs. gun, vs. knife, in a car, indoor (resembling) house, sitting by table, left/right hand shooting and reloading with 1 hand etc.... the only thing I haven't done is a being attacked while taking a crap lol. But since this thread is about gun vs. knife, so I will only elaborate on this. I tried the drill with simunition a few times only. The scenario consisted of a few intertwined hallways, where I would be ramdomly attacked with a knife. The times when I was able to react (which is my main point of argument - if you're able to react and draw your gun- gun kills knife), I was able to squeaze off at least 4-5 rounds (I might have had a flier here and there but most shots hit upper torso area... kill shots) before my aggressor made contact. But like I said on prior posts, training (eg. knife simulation- I was using side holdster with no jacket, which is unrealistic for me since our laws demand that our guns be concealed. Plus I was expecting an attack) is one thing and the real thing is another... so you never know.

Everyone keeps pointing out the possible negative sides of a gun: running out of ammo, jamming etc. But don't forget, the attacker with the knife will also be as nervous as you (sweaty hands/slippery grip, slow or disorganized attacks etc). Also, stabbing somone is not as easy as some think. You might want to stab somone but unconciously you might not want to- just like when somone wants to commit suicide by cutting their wrist; unconciously or by reflex not cutting deep enough etc. On the other hand, shooting somone is in my opinion easier since there's no contact, no feel etc.

What I been trying to say on all my replies is that if you are able to react and draw your gun, gun will kill knife. Yes, you might still be injured, but more than likely you will walk away alive while your knife attacker will be dead. I'm not just saying to just stand still and shoot (if you are able to draw), you must utilize your surroundings, step back, use your offhand to fend off etc.
 
the only thing I haven't done is a being attacked while taking a crap lol. ... I'm not just saying to just stand still and shoot (if you are able to draw), you must utilize your surroundings, step back, use your offhand to fend off etc.

Excellent. Remember to keep that hand closed when fending off a knife wielding attacker so that you keep your fingers. That includes the thumb.

Yes, you might still be injured, but more than likely you will walk away alive while your knife attacker will be dead.

We'll have to disagree on this. A serious knife attacker is intent upon murder and will have no qualms about pumping you full of holes. A slash is not a realiable attack since all sorts of issues from clothing to sharpness come into play, but even a screw driver will puncture through clothing. A buddy of mine was a surgical tech. He said that the GSW that had the greatest lethality was shotgun wounds. The only thing he said outdid shotgun wounds for lethality were people that hit the door with multiple thoracic stab wounds.

Regardless, this disagreement on this fact won't make any functional difference for you.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top