Gunshop owner. Two issues. A big deal to you?

[Orion8472]

Setup: He is a small store owner who sees himself as a more "personal owner" over those bigger chain type stores. My brother and I have purchased guns from him in the past.

Situation #1. My brother traded three used guns for 1 new gun. After having it a few days, and without taking it to the range, he went back to the shop to see what he could do for him. . . . perhaps trading for something else. Owner was fine with a trade, but at ~ $200 less than my brother traded for it. Now, I know the owner can get them new for $200 cheaper than he sells them for, . . . but IF he is interested in being more personal and LESS like bigger companies, wouldn't he want to treat customers well so that they'll say, "he was good to me on that deal, so I'm going back to him".

Situation #2. While shooting the breeze [time before situation #1], a guy bought a rifle. The owner was there by himself and neglected to double check form 4473 . . . in which the purchaser forgot to sign and date the reverse side. When just my brother and myself were left in the store, he wanted me to forge the guy's signature. I expressed that I wasn't comfortable with that and that the buyer will just have to come back in.

My brother and I thought this guy's store was the new place to go. Found some pretty interesting guns there. But now, we are not wanting to go back there due to both situtations above.

What would be YOUR input on the above? Overreaction or good call?

 

[Sam1911]

Situation 1: Well, that's up to him, but I sure wouldn't expect much different treatment. He exists to make money on gun sales and trades. (Plus a fair bit on accessories as well, of course.) If he lets folks swap back even-up, or even close, he's not doing his job very well.

Situation 2: Oh ugh. Sloppy, unethical, and illegal work. If that's the way he does things, it will eventually bite him hard. Not to say I wouldn't ever deal with him, but I'd be darned sure I knew the laws and the stakes involved when I did. And I DANGED sure wouldn't be signing anyone else's forms!

 

[Kristensdaddy]

Sounds like the problem will take care of itself and he will be out of business shortly.

 

[OARNGESI]

situation 1 isnt that big of deal the gun isnt new once you fill out the paperwork and take it home

situation 2 seems like it could cause him problems in the future

 

[jdh]

#1
The owner of the shop where I USED to work called it a "Stupid Tax".

 

[Teachu2]

#1 - It's a gun store, not a library.
#2 - That would be the end for me - asking me to commit a crime in order to save him driving over to a customer for a signature.

 

[MachIVshooter]

#1: This sounds like more a problem with your brother's indecisiveness or impulsiveness than the LGS practices, although a $200 hit seems a bit high if the gun was in the same condition as it was when he bought it days earlier. I would expect to take about a 15% hit doing that kind of exchange: $500 gun when bought, $425 credit trading in. But then, most of the gun shops I deal with only have a 15-20% mark up on new guns anyway.

#2: Yeah, no way I'd sign that. Falsifying a federal document is a very serious offfense. He'll either learn to be more meticulous with the paperwork or he'll lose his FFL. It's not your problem either way.

 

[Tim the student]

#1, not such a big deal. He can't sell it new anymore.

#2, I'd never go back, and I'd tell him why - I don't trust him, let alone that he wanted me to take part in a crime.

 

[Orion8472]

Mach, . . . on situation #1, my brother [and me as well] was kinda hoping he would do something like that [the 15% return fee] to establish customer relations. He'd still get money out of the gun. . . . when it sells to another customer.

There's another gunshop that has that type of 15% fee. I'm going back there just for their care for their customers. IF it were a used gun purchased, within 30 days, they do even better.

Situation #2 keeps me from going back.

 

[MtnSpur]

Situation 1: The store is in business to turn a profit, his criteria determines buy backs/trades/sales so moot point.
Situation 2: Illegal and if proven to have occurred, loss of license plus serious legal ramifications.

 

[Bubbles]

1) Number 1 is just business, and the dealer can't sell that gun as NIB any more since it's already been sold at retail. You say it wasn't shot, but the dealer can't really confirm that easily. Also, you didn't say how much the gun was worth - $200 off of a $500 gun is different from $200 off a $2000 gun.

2) Big problem, I wouldn't return.

 

[Claude Clay]

id wait for his 'going out of business' sale before i went back

 

[Orion8472]

Bubble [good name, BTW], it was a $500 gun that the guy was going to give my brother $300 for. He had a used Gen4 in his case for $525-ish.

 

[Bubba613]

As said, situation 1, that's business. I don't know too many places that would allow trade in value for what he just paid.
Situation 2, totally illegal and stupid. Illegal because the customer has to sign. Stupid because he could have forged the signature himself without anyone else knowing about it. Reason not to go back for the following:
It is not unknown in some shops for the owner to make 'off the books" deals with his buddies. If a gun was booked but he wants to sell it off the books then he needs to account for it in his A&D book. The easy way to do that is simply assign it to an existing 4473 without that purchaser knowing anything about it.
So what if he assigns a gun to your signed 4473? And the gun ends up in a crime. Who is ATF coming to interview?
This actually happened to a friend of mine and caused him time and anguish, even though he hadn't done anythign wrong.
So if the owner is willing to ask you to partner in illegal activity he will be more willing to do stuff like that.

 

[riki]

#1: Shop owner is greedy a bit, but in his own right. It is HIS shop.
#2: Thank God we have our own copy of 4473 analogue here and no one can assign anything for me I didn't bought. I'd never come to that shop again.

 

[Orion8472]

Are shop owners actually making that much profit? I knew they made some profit [and they need to for their business], but $200 above their $300 cost? That puts gun buying into another frame of thought.

Situation #2 happened the time just before Situation #1, . . . and I was hoping for him to say "Hey, I want to apologize for asking you to do that last time. . . . ". He's been a very nice man, and talked a good game. And having said that "he treats his former customers right" in the past, I assumed that he would have done better for my brother than this.

So to sum up:

Strike one - Asking me to forge the buyer's signature.
Strike two - Not apologizing for asking me to.
Strike three - Not actually "treating continued customers any different than the big name shops".

Really though, . . . . the "strike one" was enough.

 

[larryflew]

#1 most big box stores double their cost for a starting sale price so that kind of profit is not out of line (also on most other items, not just guns). How much do you make in a day? Now how many guns does he need to sell not even including overhead, expensive insurance etc to make what you make?

And as others have said although maybe a bit greedy he really can't sell it as new again although with #2 looming here he probably would anyway.

#2 reason not to go back in itself. Illegal, Immoral etc etc etc.

 

[Bubbles]

it was a $500 gun that the guy was going to give my brother $300 for

That's about right for a trade-in. Most shops will give 35-70% of what they'll flip the gun for, depending on how fast the owner thinks it will move.

Don't like it, sell it yourself on GunBroker.

 

[Dr.Mall Ninja]

Number one seems completely fine with me, they are in business to make money, the gun now has to be sold as used and they are going to have to put it on the shelf again and sold that way which might take months.

Number two is fraud, and that's always a bad idea.

 

[Sam1911]

it was a $500 gun that the guy was going to give my brother $300 for

That's about right for a trade-in. Most shops will give 35-70% of what they'll flip the gun for, depending on how fast the owner thinks it will move.

Certainly so, and as others said, it isn't a library.

He did his job -- he took in three guns and gave out one. He figured the potential sale price of each, factored in how long he'd been holding the one he was letting go and how long he figures he'll have to hold the three he's getting, made sure he's pocketing some profit on the deal and agreed to it.

Your brother comes back in with a rifle (same rifle, different rifle, doesn't matter) and wants to do another trade. (That's NOT simply "undoing" the previous trade. Doesn't work that way.) Dealer has to run all the same mental calculations and figure out how he will profit from this new trade.

He doesn't WANT that rifle back. It does him no good unless he can make more money on it from passing it through his hands again. He makes money from the transactions.

 

[Orion8472]

I am good on #1 now. I understand it is a money making thing. My brother will either keep it or sell it off. Gunbroker may be an option, actually. I'll let him know.

#2 will keep me out of his store. Unfortunate. Sometimes he gets in older guns that are hard to find. It's where I picked up that 1958 Ruger Single Six 3 screws revolver.

Oh well. At least I have that one.

 

[HOOfan_1]

#1: Shop owner is greedy a bit, but in his own right. It is HIS shop.

I don't quite see it that way. Once it left his shop it was a used gun. His brother should have been sure of what he wanted before the trade. I know from working with the public...if you try to be nice and make an exception, people will start EXPECTING that exception to be made constantly. If the gun owner gave him his money back then he would leave himself open to people using him as a free rental shop.

I'd be intrested to find what other shops in the area would have given the OPs brother if he went those those stores instead of original purchase store.

 

[SilentStalker]

What is the name of this said store? I know some people at the ATF and it sounds like they might just need to pay them a visit...

 

[Orion8472]

HOOfan, he wasn't expecting money back. Just something a bit better than what the owner suggested, after stating that he "wants to treat his customers right . . . over what other shops would do".

As I said, the other gunshop said that they would do a 15% deal on new guns. Better than the 40% from OP shop owner.

 

[Orion8472]

Silent . . . I won't give the name. As far as I'm concerned, I did the right thing and am done with the situation and store.