Gunshop owner. Two issues. A big deal to you?

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Medal: "If a trace were ever done on that gun, it would show as sold by the dealer to your brother, not to the subsequent buyer."

No, not if there is another Form 4473 filed on the returned firearm by the next buyer. If the gun shop owner sold it "under the table" to another person, then yes it would go back to the original buyer.
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Actually, a trace sure would bring them right to the gun shop, who would pull out the original 4473 and find the brother's name and contact info. There's a chance the dealer would remember off the top of his head (or be able to search through his own computer records, if he has computer records set up for it) that the same gun was brought back and sold to someone else, but if not the brother will have to explain the matter to them.

Eventually they'll locate the name of the next guy who bought it, and may be able to trace it further down the chain of custody, but the brother won't be on the hook for some crime because of this.
 
one. Not a biggie. A local dealer told me he could not have a gun turn around and immediately return to his inventory book after being listed as sold. I did not check to see if this is a state or federal regulation, but once a gun is listed as sold on a 4473 it is a used gun even if NIB. It's like driving a car off the lot: the commercial value drops immediately to pre-owned status.

two. Biggie. Doesn't ATF have a video on "don't lie for the other guy"? I would not falsify a 4473 for a stranger just because the dealer forgot to finish the paperwork; I would start to wonder what really was going on in that transaction.
 
Respectfully Sam, this is not even close to being the same thing. Do we get to take the pistol to the local range to test "shoot" the gun before we buy it? Absolutely not. We are therefore buying a firearm untested. The only way to be sure that the gun will be the right gun for the individual is to shoot it. The consumer is then financially punished by the gun shops every time they purchase a gun and are not happy with it. How is this the fault of the consumer?
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Somewhat true, but there certainly are ways to test-fire most guns before you buy one (rentals, borrowing, etc.). And if there is a PROBLEM with the gun, that's another matter. Most shops seem to care enough to deal with the manufacturer for you if there's some defect.

But when you buy a gun and just decide you don't like it, that's not the shop's fault. They can't possibly return the merchandise to the manufacturer or distributor because the customer doesn't LIKE it. They can't sell it again as new, as others have said. The customer isn't being punished by the gun shops -- the gun shop is trying to keep from eating (quite possibly more than) their profit on that gun by having to sell it as "nearly new."

Without seeing the dealer's figures on the trade I'm hesitant to say the $200 was too high. Really depends on the gun. Also could depend on what the dealer felt about the three guns he'd gotten in trade. Remember, this wasn't even a cash sale. Trading used guns for new guns is a ticklish business.

And maybe he really doesn't want to facilitate this kind of fickle gun buying and returning habit. Sometimes prices and offers make a kind of statement. In this case I'd take the statement to be, "I'll take that gun back if you REALLY want me to, but only for a sweetheart deal. You bought it and took it home and looked at it for a few days and decided you don't like it. That's not my fault or the manufacturer's. That's your issue, and your problem to solve. I've sold a good product. Your personal tastes and changing whims should not hurt my wallet. I'll take it off your hands again, but I'm making $200 on that deal. If you think someone else will give you a better deal, by all means go talk to them. I wish you good luck, but I'm not taking money out of my pocket so you can waste my time with your indecisiveness."

Maybe the market will force dealers to be more "accommodating" and go further for the customer than they do now. Maybe they will someday be more like toaster salesmen. I don't know. But that's not the world we live in today.
 
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On the issue of a defective gun, . . . you can't return them [like other items] for a refund. If a defective gun has caused you to loose faith in it, . . . too bad. It is nearly impossible to return it for a refund. Sometimes you can, but it is rare. I've recently gone through that very thing.

As for buying something, shooting it, and realizing it wasn't for you, . . . I took a huge hit on a recent buy. Looked good in the store. Did NOT like it when I shot it. Almost gave it away because it was a niche gun that wasn't all that popular. This is why I really hate gun buying. . . unless I KNOW that it is something I want. Most of the time, we take chances on them. If you don't like it, you take a hit on the price IF you can find someone to buy it.

I have two guns that I have for sale [one current, one coming up]. I'm sure I will have to take a hit on them if I want to sell them. Suck? Absolutely. One I may just keep and use [though I don't need it, it may become useful in the future].

I guess the moral of the story is, . . . . "know what you absolutely want to do before hand. . . . . and still accept the risks that your "absolutely know" was even right". :uhoh:

But yeah, . . . the #2 situation will keep me out of his store from this point out.
 
Situation #1: This one may be a problem for me, but as it's written, it's a problem with my not having an extra $200 lying around. If the $200 is characterized as a "restocking fee," I'd prefer that such be posted. If it's just a "market value adjustment," then that's OK, too, but I might shop around to see if I could get a better trade-in. IOW, it's an economic problem, not a legal or ethical one.

Situation #2: Problem. Big, on the scale of gargantuan, problem of the felony variety. The best that the shop owner could expect out of me is that I would walk out, never to return, never to spend another nickel there.
 
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On the issue of a defective gun, . . . you can't return them [like other items] for a refund. If a defective gun has caused you to loose faith in it, . . . too bad. It is nearly impossible to return it for a refund. Sometimes you can, but it is rare. I've recently gone through that very thing.
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If it was NIB then the manufacturer should fix or replace it under their warranty. Also, if the FFL bought it from Davidson's (distributor) they will permit exchanges if a gun is defective.
 
Bubbles, that was an issue I had with one I recently purchased. Defective, but sent it back to Ruger at no charge to me [other than the UPS box I put it in]. But I lost my desire for it now, so will be selling it, though it will show up on the UPS truck today. I may take a loss, but no longer want it.

Just the way it goes in the gun buying world.
 
sansone, . . . . as I think back, . . . I cannot make that decision on whether or not he was serious. He seemed serious to me, but I could have misinterpretted his actions. I was uncomfortable about the request . . . stood there for a sec. . . [though I knew the answer] asked "is this illegal?" . . . and he acknowledged it was with "...Well, sure!"

Seems like it could have been a joke. :confused:
 
As far as returning it like you would a TV, the problem (as far ad I know) is with the manufacturer, not the store owner. The owner can not just return it to the company (if I am wrong sorry)

And with TVs you have very little operator error, that is not the same with guns. Guns are not like most items. Much of what a buyer would consider defective would be operator error ( like limp wresting) or ammo issues. If it is truly defective the buyer can return it to the gun company
 
How would you like it if he asked another customer to forge your signature? That is absurd. Why have you not reported the incident to the police?
 
At this point, it would be his word against mine. There is no reason to.

As for MY 4473 forms, I always do them correctly.
 
I like to think of myself as a good person. Hardworking, polite, most of all Honest.
I don't think I would step foot into that place again.
 
I agree with CJA again. Let's try this scenario:
A wealthy gentleman wants to buy a Mercedes for his wife, but is not sure she will like it. He's bought a number of cars at the dealership and so asks his friend at the dealer (yes a business associate at this point because of his repeat business) to flatbed the car out to his home and see if his wife likes it. If she does, great, if not, bummer, I'll be back for something else another time.
So, few things here. This does happen. And it is performed by the wiser managers of successful dealerships. They know that over time, they'll get more business from people they treat LIKE FRIENDS. So, the car is not used, can be resold as new, and dealer and the buyer have a special relationship.
That special relationship (use the term friends) is one of the shrinking number of things that separate a local retailer from a web site or a big box company. Whether retail, enterprise, stocks and bonds, whatever, the frequent buyer is and should be treated better. And why? Because studies have shown that it costs more than 5x as much to secure a new customer rather than sell to an existing customer.
I should add that scenario 2, where the dealer notes the he will forge a signature on a government document is absolutely ludicrous, ensures that the buyer should never step foot in that establishment and that it provides a unique view as to why that retailer should never remain in business.
B

Cactus Jack Arizona said:
Sam: "Go trade in your Honda on a new Mercedes. Take it home. Come back next week and tell them you think you'd like them to take it back, you've just changed your mind and maybe will get something else."

Respectfully Sam, this is not even close to being the same thing. Do we get to take the pistol to the local range to test "shoot" the gun before we buy it? Absolutely not. We are therefore buying a firearm untested. The only way to be sure that the gun will be the right gun for the individual is to shoot it. The consumer is then financially punished by the gun shops every time they purchase a gun and are not happy with it. How is this the fault of the consumer?

Do we get to test drive a car before we buy it? Of course. And seriously, who's not going to like a Mercedes? ;) I'd love to have a Mercedes SLS AMG. :what: It's the sexiest car ever made. :D
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I sorta gotta go with the dealer on the first bit. Not only does he now have a "used" rifle to resell, he's still stuck with the three beater guns he took in trade, which he now has tied up in inventory and has to sell to recoup his initial cost in the formerly new rifle. As far as he knows, the entire maneuver was just a slick way for your brother to get cash for his old guns.
 
zoom, . . . you do not know the situation at all. All three guns looked new. He just wanted to get out of .380acp guns.
 
B!ngo said:
I agree with CJA again. Let's try this scenario:
A wealthy gentleman wants to buy a Mercedes for his wife, but is not sure she will like it. He's bought a number of cars at the dealership and so asks his friend at the dealer (yes a business associate at this point because of his repeat business) to flatbed the car out to his home and see if his wife likes it. If she does, great, if not, bummer, I'll be back for something else another time.
So, few things here. This does happen. And it is performed by the wiser managers of successful dealerships. They know that over time, they'll get more business from people they treat LIKE FRIENDS. So, the car is not used, can be resold as new, and dealer and the buyer have a special relationship.
That special relationship (use the term friends) is one of the shrinking number of things that separate a local retailer from a web site or a big box company. Whether retail, enterprise, stocks and bonds, whatever, the frequent buyer is and should be treated better. And why? Because studies have shown that it costs more than 5x as much to secure a new customer rather than sell to an existing customer.
I should add that scenario 2, where the dealer notes the he will forge a signature on a government document is absolutely ludicrous, ensures that the buyer should never step foot in that establishment and that it provides a unique view as to why that retailer should never remain in business.
B
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You can still sell the car as new in that situation because title work has not been prepared and transfer ownership has not happened.

Laws will not allow you to take the gun out of the store untill form 4473 has been filled out and ownership has been transferred, thus it is not a new gun anymore and has too be sold as used.

That is law not store policy. Not the owners fault. Your example is missing the most important piece, ownership transfer (title work on car)
 
For all we know the dealer said #2 off the cuff and in jest...I doubt if the seriousness of it was brought into question until the OP's brother didn't get the results he wanted in #1.
 
Wrong. Situation #2 has nothing to do with the feelings on #1. I felt uneasy walking into the store the next [and last] time.

:scrutiny:
 
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