Has anyone sent in a Rem 700 for the bolt safety modification?

[Rule3]

I feel "uncomfortable" about the bolt lock safety and the possibility of the rifle firing when switching from fire to safe or the other way around, not the trigger.
It's not free to send the rifle in. Maybe free for them to look at the trigger once its' there and you paid the $20 plus shipping plus return shipping.

 

[natman]

Yep. Locking the bolt is nice, being able to unload while on safe is required. The only reason you should ever need to put a loaded gun into FIRE position is to fire it.

So I'm guessing that you don't own a 1911.

Actually I do own a 1911, a very nice Gold Cup. I shoot it at the range at targets. I wouldn't carry one. John Browning intended that the 1911 be carried with the chamber empty. It's a great gun in many respects, but its operation leaves a lot to be desired from a safety aspect.

 

[AirForceShooter]

Remington should be picking up the entire tab for this "fix"
Beretta is doing that with the NEOS recall.

AFS

 

[Rule3]

Remington should be picking up the entire tab for this "fix"
Beretta is doing that with the NEOS recall.

AFS

I agree. S&W and or Ruger seem to be able to do it and pretty darn fast and responsibly.
Even if there was just a hint of problem. How many Walther PPk's and LCP's were recalled???

 

[Jackal1]

People need to do A LOT of research and not just take CNBC's word for things before they open their mouths.

Since when has CNBC been a reliable source of firearm information? CNBC has an agenda to make firearms be controlled by a federal board (didn't anyone catch the end of the so-called "Documentary"?) and simultaneously put Remington out of business.

As far as "Safety" goes, the Remington 700 is perfectly safe. The only way Remington or even Non-Remington specialists have been able to replicate the accidental firings is if the trigger mechanism has been modified by the user or is so rusted and corroded that the trigger mechanism is crumbling apart.

The documents that CNBC said supposedly illustrated that Remington knew about the accidental firing issue were research and development memos that Remington had back in the 1940's before they ever even introduced the 700. The 700 was released in 1962 after the design flaws were fixed.

Even if Remington did have a serious safety issue they could not honestly be expected to recall and fix all the 700's on their own dime. The 700 has been the #1 selling rifle for decades and the recall cost is predicted to be more than all of Remington's worth combined. A total recall would put Remington out of business for good. Ruger, S&W, etc have recently been able to have recalled firearms fixed on their own dime because these were relatively new firearms and the recall cost would have been minimal and (obviously) did not put the company out of business.

If anyone considers themselves to be pro-gun and yet is fooled by CNBC they should feel ashamed...

Go to the following link to get more information about Remington's response:
www.remington700.tv

 

[USSR]

As far as "Safety" goes, the Remington 700 is perfectly safe. The only way Remington or even Non-Remington specialists have been able to replicate the accidental firings is if the trigger mechanism has been modified by the user or is so rusted and corroded that the trigger mechanism is crumbling apart.

So, you are calling the several people on this site that stated that their unmolested, straight out of the box M700's exhibited this malfunction, liars?

Don

 

[Rule3]

Jackal,

I agree and said as much in post#18. No we can not go by one report on CNBC.
But, there does appear to be more AD's then perhaps we know of. I still do not like the idea of the safety (on mine) having to be in the fire position to unload .

 

[Vern Humphrey]

there does appear to be more AD's then perhaps we know of. I still do not like the idea of the safety (on mine) having to be in the fire position to unload .

Nor do I like the idea of "fixing" the problem by removing the bolt lock-down feature.

If Remington wants me to buy their rifle, they have to offer it with a 3-position safety.

 

[robertbartsc]

So the original Walker trigger is crisp without much creep and the X-Mark Pro trigger is not so crisp and has some creep? Is this the reason why so many folks consider the old M700 a tack driver and why Remington sold so many M700 rifles?

Did they put a competition sniper trigger on a hunting gun and is this a big reason why they sold so many m700s?

 

[abc7]

Rem 700, 710, 770 triggers

If you will all excuse a new member to this forum I see many do not take this trigger problem seriously. Some do. First of - modifying to allow the rifle to be unloaded with the safety on does in no way deal with the problem it only removes one factor. The rifle could still fire when closing the bolt when you are ready to fire or when opening the bolt or it may not cock at all. Some members got it right, it is a problem with the trigger, not the safety. When we release the safety, a properly positioned connector sear takes over the job of preventing the rifle from firing. The problem is that connector. It does not always take its proper position tight against the main trigger body. I feel the more the rifle is used the less likely the connector will give a problem. This probably explains why with many 700 owners they have not had the problem. If you examine the trigger carfully you should be able to see why it can malfunction. A little moisture (then rust) or dirt.

If I can express a personal opinion I do not see a good remedy for this trigger. If that connector was'nt there it would be a totally different situation. that's the reason we are replacing the trigger on my sons 700 mountain rifle. I know many riflemen are jumping on the gun safety bandwagon and it is a legitimate point. I agree with a few of your members there is no excuse for this problem when Rem has known about it for over 50 years. They still have the new 770 with the old Walker trigger. If the trigger shoe is grooved it is a Walker. I know about gun safety, I have been practicing it for more than 60 years. I will under no circumstances tolerate an unpredictable trigger practicing safety or not. It is not reasonable. I believe many are stuck on the many years they have not experienced the malfunction. Remember, Familarity breeds contempt. This is too serious a matter to rely on everyone practicing total gun safety. Sadly it just a matter of time before the next major injury happens.

To those who think it is caused by monkeying the trigger and sloppy gun handling believe me, though that can be true that is not the issue in this case. We have a built in trigger problem. Please refrain from making unqualified remarks. It could cost someone their life, maybe someone that should have been more careful, maybe some innocent bystander. If someone thinks applying safe gun handling is all that is needed, that is your right. Just don't deny the problem for the sake of others who will sluff it off as so much BS as some call it. Please, this goes out to all gun lovers. Take it seriously, the life you save may be your own son. Thanks for being patient with me.

There is so much more I could say about the TV CNBC program, the Rem response, the trigger itself, the legal cases etc etc. It is just too much for a forum like this. What frustrates me the most is this. Many do not believe there is a problem and some who do accept there is a problem do not really understand the problem. As was mentioned earlier the problem is (not) the safety. Safe shooting. abc7.

 

[abc7]

Rem 700, 710, 770 triggers

If you will all excuse a new member to this forum I see many do not take this trigger problem seriously. Some do. First off - modifying to allow the rifle to be unloaded with the safety on does in no way deal with the problem it only removes one factor. The rifle could still fire when closing the bolt when you are ready to fire or when opening the bolt or it may not cock at all. Some members got it right, it is a problem with the trigger, not the safety. When we release the safety, a properly positioned connector sear takes over the job of preventing the rifle from firing. The problem is that connector. It does not always take its proper position tight against the main trigger body. I feel the more the rifle is used the less likely the connector will give a problem. This probably explains why with many 700 owners they have not had the problem. If you examine the trigger carfully you should be able to see why it can malfunction. A little moisture (then rust) or dirt.

If I can express a personal opinion I do not see a good remedy for this trigger. If that connector was'nt there it would be a totally different situation. that's the reason we are replacing the trigger on my sons 700 mountain rifle. I know many riflemen are jumping on the gun safety bandwagon and it is a legitimate point. I agree with a few of your members there is no excuse for this problem when Rem has known about it for over 50 years. They still have the new 770 with the old Walker trigger. If the trigger shoe is grooved it is a Walker. I know about gun safety, I have been practicing it for more than 60 years. I will under no circumstances tolerate an unpredictable trigger practicing safety or not. It is not reasonable. I believe many are stuck on the many years they have not experienced the malfunction. Remember, Familarity breeds contempt. This is too serious a matter to rely on everyone practicing total gun safety. Sadly it just a matter of time before the next major injury happens.

To those who think it is caused by monkeying the trigger and sloppy gun handling believe me, though that can be true that is not the issue in this case. We have a built in trigger problem. Please refrain from making unqualified remarks. It could cost someone their life, maybe someone that should have been more careful, maybe some innocent bystander. If someone thinks applying safe gun handling is all that is needed, that is your right. Just don't deny the problem for the sake of others who will sluff it off as so much BS as some call it. Please, this goes out to all gun lovers. Take it seriously, the life you save may be your own son. Thanks for being patient with me.

There is so much more I could say about the TV CNBC program, the Rem response, the trigger itself, the legal cases etc etc. It is just too much for a forum like this. What frustrates me the most is this. Many do not believe there is a problem and some who do accept there is a problem do not really understand the problem. As was mentioned earlier the problem is (not) the safety. Safe shooting. abc7.

 

[joed]

Does the M700 come back from the Remington "repair" with a 10 pound trigger pull or other undesirable traits? What do they do; install an X-Mark Pro trigger?

You better believe they will reset the trigger to original specs. I was told as long as the work was done by a competent gunsmith they wouldn't touch it. Mine was done by a gunsmith and I would not trust Remington with the trigger.

The Xmark? I recently bought a new 700 with this piece of junk on it. Mine broke at 6 lbs. Adjusting it I couldn't get it down to 4 lb. The trigger itself feels nicer then the older one and it is crisp. I want to be able to adjust it lower then 4 lbs. I replaced it with a Timney. I still have the Xmark and was wondering if a gunsmith can lighten it or it is just as cheap to buy a new trigger.

My oldest 700 has the old style safety. I plan to replace this one with a Timney too.

There is no substitute for always keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. If you trust the safety it could cost a life, I never trusted it.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

First of - modifying to allow the rifle to be unloaded with the safety on does in no way deal with the problem it only removes one factor.

And adds another factor. There's a reason most safeties lock the bolt handle down when engaged -- if you inadvertantly raise the bolt handle a smidgen while crawling through deadfalls, your rifle is deactivated.

By eliminating the bolt hold-down feature, they have made the rifle less suitable for use afield.

 

[backwoodzboy]

If I had a Model 700 and was going to put money into it, I'd buy and nstall a Winchester-style 3-position safety.

Absolutely!!!!

 

[Vern Humphrey]

John Browning intended that the 1911 be carried with the chamber empty. It's a great gun in many respects, but its operation leaves a lot to be desired from a safety aspect.

Actually, John Browning intended the M1911 to be carried with a round in the chamber, and the hammer lowered as in the SAA. His original design had no safties at all.

The Army, who was the customer, demaded safties -- both the grip safety and the safety lock. The Army intended that the gun be carried either in Condition 3 (magazine loaded, chamber empty) or Condition 1 (cocked-and-locked.) After all, the Functional Proponant (the ultimate customer) was the Cavalry. In action, a cavalryman could need both hands to control a frightened and perhaps wounded horse, while holding a cocked and loaded pistol. The solution was to lock the safety and drop the pistol in the holster.

Beginning in 1912, when the pistol was first issued, the Army always mandated either Condition 3 or Condition 1, depending on the tactical situation.

 

[abc7]

Backwoodzboy-- Just wondering if you realized in putting a bolt head safety you have a very good safety but unless you have a trigger to go with it you you havent fixed anything. Its the trigger that is in question not the safety. Just trying to be helpful. Verne is also correct about allowing the rifle to be unloaded with safety on. Sorry I am so late but I was reluctant to say anything because many are so sensitive to this topic.

 

[red rick]

What makes the safety issues credible to me is the interview with Mike Walker the inventor of the 700. He wanted to change his design, because he had safety concerns. but Remington said know. I guess CNBC could have edited his words, and the others that they interviewed, but if they had, I am sure Remington would have sued them. I do own a Remington, but it's a shotgun.

 

[Rule3]

Rifle was sent to Remington and Returned.

Well as the OP of this thread I felt an update was needed.

I did send my 700 back to Remington Factory in NY. For the sum of $35 total which included shipping both ways, the gunsmith installed a new X Mark Pro trigger, cleaned, and fixed a broken front sight (no charge) test fired and returned. They had it for just under 30 days and this was their busy season.

So for that price I have a new trigger group. inspected by a gunsmith and I am a happy camper.

 

[suzukisam]

Jackal and anyone else who thinks this is funny! I don't care what msnbc or any of the other state run media say, this is a serious problem with the rem 700. I have seen this with my own eyes! you go hunting with a rifle that fires when the safety is turned off! it's a connector issue and it has nothing to do with media, yes muzzle control is key but it is still a very dangerous gun if not fixed. people have killed their children thinking the gun was pointed in a safe direction. my dad fired off a live round deer hunting one time and we all just had a blank look on our faces.. scared us to death.. if he hadn't had muzzle control I might not be typing this

 

[natman]

Let’s take a look at some of the objections:

"It’s an anti-gun conspiracy / CNBC is biased."

Yes, CNBC is biased, and their story contains slanted perspectives and misleading information. What did you expect? However, just because the presentation is biased doesn’t necessarily mean that the core issue isn’t true.

"It must be caused by people fiddling with their trigger adjustments."

No doubt some of the problems are indeed due to improper adjustments. However there are lots of rifles that have adjustable triggers that don’t have anywhere near as many complaints. Something else is going on.

So let's take a look at what it is:

Here's the Remington 700 "Walker" trigger cocked:



The Remington 700 trigger is a bit unusual in that it uses an extra piece, the trigger connector, to refine the trigger pull. The tiny red area is the engagement between the connector and the sear.

When the trigger is pulled, the connector goes forward and returns to this position:


For this trigger to operate safely it is essential that when the rifle is cocked the trigger connector return 100% to the proper position, pushed there by only the light weight trigger spring.

See the red area between the trigger shoe and the trigger connector when the rifle is uncocked? That's the problem area. Any tiny speck of dirt, rust, ice or other material that gets in there will prevent the connector from engaging the sear properly. This can result in the safety keeping the sear from falling instead of the trigger connector. When the safety is released, the gun fires.

With all this in mind, let's take a look at a couple more objections:

“I’ve owned a Remington 700 for forty years and fired thousands of rounds and never had a problem.”

Good for you. This problem doesn't happen often, simply because it’s fairly difficult for stuff to work its way into the proper area of the trigger. But this is not a question of a few defective guns; it’s a design weakness that could affect any of the millions of guns with this trigger. If you haven’t had a problem, it’s because nothing has worked its way into your trigger.

Yet.

"This only happens on dirty or neglected guns."

This is more likely to happen on a dirty or neglected gun. However, a grass seed or a bit of pine needle could make this happen on an otherwise pristine gun.

"There wouldn't be any problem if they followed The Rules of Gun Safety."

True enough. You should always treat your gun as though it could go off at any moment. That doesn't excuse making a rifle that actually does it.

 

[roklok]

If anyone out there would like to trade an old style bolt locking 700 safety for a new style, let me know. I much prefer the older style safety which locks the bolt, and have numerous new style safetys lying around. I would be happy to exchange a new one for an old one. It is simple to swap them.

As far as the trigger connector, I permanently attach the connector to the trigger, to prevent the potential of the connector not returning to the proper position, as described in the above post. I epoxy the connector to the trigger, and then drill and tap for a 3-56 screw. This eliminates the weak point of the design.

 

[Picher]

I hunted with the old bolt-lock safety for many years and never had a problem. The first year with a new rifle and the bolt was lifted several times by brush, twigs, etc. and I missed an opportunity to shoot a deer. I'm now constantly checking to see if the bolt has lifted and am not comfortable with the system.

I gave my older rifle to my son and wish I could have another like it, but it's not going to happen. I would never put a Winchester-type safety on a Remington, they're in the wrong position and too noisy for me. That's one big reason for buying a Remington.

Safe gun handling at all times is the key. NEVER let a muzzle point where it could unintentionally hurt anyone or anything, even for an instant!!! The best safety mechanisms are not 100% safe (especially when the operator is human, hence prone to failure).

 

[roklok]

Picher, a lot of the 700s that are not factory equipped with the bolt locking safety can be converted to a locking bolt with a simple safety swap to an older safety assembly. None of my 700s were factory equipped with the bolt locking safety, but all of them that I use for big game hunting have had older safety assemblys retrofitted to lock the bolt with safety on.

Up through the early 90s, the receiver and bolt were still machined for the bolt lock safety, although that style of safety was discontinued in 1982. A simple safety swap is all that is required.

 

[Skyshot]

If you can't control the muzzel, I don't care what make the rifle is. Sell them all and take up badminton. Because you are an IDIOT!

 

[abc7]

Natman
That was a good post. Gives some members a good view of the trigger and should help some who are not familar with the inner workings. Sure is an issue that gets gun owners upset. Dont see the need of getting so worked up about it. It's not rocket science.

There is another question I would like to hear from you on if you would. Regarding the safety ball under spring pressure. As it is rolled from the upper detent in the Safety "on' position to the lower detent hole in the Safety "off' position, the trigger itself is directly under the ball and on one web site it shows where the Ball has actually caused a little scuffing of the trigger. If this is so it can also be a secondary problem which could cause the rifle to fire when the safety is released. I found this site under "Remington model 700 trigger assembly". appreciate your input. abc7