Have You Given Up On a SD Caliber?

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The full-power .357 always seemed to be way too much for SD, especially indoors. But I have several 357s, the round is versatile, and I reload. So it is a simple matter to come up with much tamer alternatives.
 
For SD I've given up all the calibers less than 9mm para.

So I'll stick to...
9mm Para
.40 S&W
.45 Auto
.357 Sig

The only revolver I have these days is a Ruger GP100 .357 magnum.
But I'm considering a .44 magnum.
 
I see nobody has mentioned the .32 auto. My wife and I carried NAA Guardians for awhile. The ONLY good thing about that gun (for us) was that it was tiny. Everything else was against it:

1) Ammo expensive and hard to find.
2) Brutal recoil that is painful in a little gun.
3) Guardian is not reliable, jams often and kicks out the magazine on a regular basis.
4) Sights are a joke.
5) No bolt hold-open feature. Not acceptable to me.

We both went to S&W Airweights for revolvers and Glock 19's for autos. Not only are these two excellent SD handguns, they are a blast to shoot, lotsa fun. In addition I carry a Glock 36 and I have a Ruger GP100 listed on my LTC but have not carried it yet.

Dan
 
My second handgun ever was a Beretta Cougar in .40S&W. I thought it would be the perfect compromise and I thought the weight of the Cougar would temper the snappy recoil a bit. What I was reminded of is that the definition of a compromise is that you give up a little something in two directions. I no longer have any .40S&W hardware, I'm 9mm, Makarov, and .45 for semi-autos.
 
vba said:
Believe it or not .357 Magnum. Couldn't get my mind around touching off one of these rounds in a self defense situation:eek:

I feel I'm better off with .45 acp, .45 Colt, .38 Special or non-plus P 9mm.
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Actually, having touched off a .357 Mag during a defensive situation, in the early 1990s, is exactly why I do still favor it. I had intended my GP100, bought as a fun/utility gun, to serve as a brief interim duty handgun, between .45 autos, as I sold my "European" P220 and was going to buy a different .45 auto with a push-button mag release. The devastating effectiveness of that 125-grain bullet converted me back to carrying a revolver as "primary" on the job until 1997, and as back-up on the job, and often my primary off the clock, to this day.

Edited to insert: To be clear, however, I am not trying to convert anyone to the .357 Mag; just saying why it works for me.

Keep in mind that the substantial muzzle blast is affecting one's opponent, too, and far worse, in a close-range shooting, as is typical of most private-citizen shootings. Gun writer Darryl Bolke, an experienced West Coast LEO and firearms trainer, dubbed the SP101 as the "hand-held flash-bang," and expressed the opinion that one reason for the noted effectiveness of the .357 on the street is that nobody wants that thing going off in their face again.

A defender can train to be prepared for the blast effect. In my incident, I perceived no flash at all, and the perceived sound was just a small "pop." Keep in mind the premium JHP defensive ammo is loaded with flash-retardant in the powder. Cheaper practice ammo, and budget JHP, will have far more flash.

That being said, if I anticipate a fight at close quarters, indoors, I will, if there is the opportunity, select something other than a short-barrel .357 Mag for the task, such as a .45 ACP handgun or a long gun.

Someday, I may well be sufficiently feeble to set aside the .357, but my overall more skillful left hand is still healthy.
 
9mm. Too much real world experience shows me they are not that dependable on bio-targets. They look good in gel, but real world results are less impressive. I now carry .45 ACP or .40 S&W ball.
 
I started CC'n a 38sp 27years ago now 125gr hp Now carry a 124gr 9mm +P. Guess I never went far. Never thought much about carry'n a bigger cartidge.
 
32 years of medical experience lead you to the conclusion that FMJ is superior to HP for self-defense?
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Without a doubt in my mind unless you get to shoot naked people. Clothing has a tendency to clog and wrap the hollow point. The heavier the clothing is the less likely it is to have any expansion. In cases like that you want something bigger and heavier.

In human shooting victims there is one thing you can count on. If you don't hit them with a 'drop right there'* shot you will have a person physically capable of fighting. He may or may not be mentally willing, but the physical capability will be there for a lot longer than you want it to be there. Massive bleeding will help speed things up, and the best way to accomplish this is to provide an entry and exit wound... the bigger, the better.

For what it's worth, according to the ME in Orlando Trayvon Martin did not die immediately from the hole in his heart. Had he been armed he was capable of returning fire for at least one minute. That's with a slightly greater than 9mm hole through his right ventricle.

A month or two later there was another man in Orlando shot "multiple times in the torso" by a 9mm. That one got creamed by a car before he stopped fighting. He was running from the scene with multiple gunshot wounds.

* The only guaranteed drop right there shots in human physiology are those that either destroy the brain or destroy the spinal cord high in the cervical spine region. Anything lower may leave the aggressor with motor control of his arms which is far from desirable in an armed person you just shot.
 
Guys we have a new grand master of bullet knowldge. doc3402

Dependable or not I will use HP ammo that I know expand thru 1 or 4 layers of blue jeans material, speer gold dot and then fire as many round as need for a BG to disengage. Update your insurance there doc. At least have the common sense to use a something like federal guard dog ammo and not completely foolish. But you may have issues with it too.
 
I don't claim to be a bullet expert. I know what I have seen in both live patients and during dozens of autopsies. I made my caliber and design choices based on that. If you disagree that's fine with me. You mean nothing to me on a personal level so I don't care what you shoot.
 
hardluk1 said:
Guys we have a new grand master of bullet knowldge. doc3402
Click to expand...

Instead of the sarcasm, you might could bring up some points of your own, and have a discussion.
 
When CCW was finally approved by the state of Kansas I was in college and money was tight, so I got a used S&W mod 10. I have switched many times to 45, 357 Sig (that one Kaboomed), 9mm, .380, and now I am right back to the same one I started with! Hard to beat the most copied firearm in the world.:rolleyes:
 
I don't understand the logic of not using hollowpoints because there's a chance they might not expand. There's a 100% chance a FMJ round won't. So if my hollow point doesn't expand at all, how is that any less effective than a FMJ? Doesn't a clogged hollowpoint that doesn't expand act exactly like a FMJ?
 
Hunter125 said:
I don't understand the logic of not using hollowpoints because there's a chance they might not expand. There's a 100% chance a FMJ round won't. So if my hollow point doesn't expand at all, how is that any less effective than a FMJ? Doesn't a clogged hollowpoint that doesn't expand act exactly like a FMJ?
Click to expand...

For me I have anti 4 legged considerations I account for too. And I decided I'm not limiting myself to 8 rounds of 45acp just to shoot hp's that will expand to .70 ish and penatrate 13" just like every other service round will do.

I carry a 45 for the same reason 45's have been carried for the past 150 years. To put a 45 Cal hole plumb through whatever of God's creations needs it at the time.

Another thing. In this and the other threads folks cite overpenatration concerns for using jhp. IMO there are many completely valid reasons to use them if they suit your needs, however they ARE NOT a replacement for or should be relied on as "insurance" against rule number 4




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complaints about
 
Hunter125 said:
I don't understand the logic of not using hollowpoints because there's a chance they might not expand. There's a 100% chance a FMJ round won't. So if my hollow point doesn't expand at all, how is that any less effective than a FMJ? Doesn't a clogged hollowpoint that doesn't expand act exactly like a FMJ?
Click to expand...
Yes, if it doesn't expand there is a pretty good chance that it will act as a FMJ round. At that point it has an excellent chance of creating the desired exit wound.

If you will look at some penetration tests (http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs.htm) you will see that of the majority of rounds tested, the ones that were fired through denim for the most part had deeper penetration and less expansion than the ones that were not fired through clothing. There was some expansion, but not as much as bare gelatin.

Keep in mind these are gel tests and not of the same inconsistent densities that you see in bio-targets. The desired penetration was at least 12 inches, but in most people that is not enough to cause an exit wound. Depending on the size of the person, area hit, muscularity or lack of, fat content, and general hydration you can expect some wide variations in both penetration and expansion. Add in clothing and you have even more variables based on fit, layers, and tightness of the cloth weave.

Now, just for the heck of it, look at the two 9mm rounds tested through the same type firearm. Do you see the overall increase in penetration with the heavier rounds? Less expansion, but more penetration. So, do you want something that will reach the vital organ, or do you want something that is going to go through it? Remember, this is self defense ammo we're talking about.

Now go down to the .45 ACP Federal 230gr Hydra-Shok JHP. Note that none of the denim covered rounds were recovered, and also note the minimal expansion of the round in bare gel. This from a round going less than 900 FPS.

Less expansion gives better penetration, and that's what experience shows me is needed.
 
I was just sitting her thinking while I had my morning cup, and something disturbing came to me. How many of you have considered that if you are going up against an assailant armed with a gun that there is a chance that the first thing you will hit will be the assailants weak side arm? Empty your firearm and go find a mirror. You'll see what I mean.

Whether it's a long gun or a handgun, and barring his use of some Hollywood gangsta hold, there is a chance that the assailant's supporting arm will be somewhere near that dead center torso aim point most of us were taught to use.

If you do hit his arm you have to live with the very real possibility that his arm injury may not take him out of the fight. Mentally he may be done, but from a physical standpoint there is nothing about his weak side arm injury that would keep him from emptying his firearm in your direction.

You still feeling good about those light weight hollow points? Keep in mind that if it isn't deflected by bone, your first one may arrive at the real target zone partially expended and partially expanded. You're not going to get the penetration you want. Meanwhile, somebody is shooting at you.
 
Seems I will have to upgrade.... my biggest pistol is a 380 auto. I've read so many times where lives were saved by only the humble .22LR. Then I thought a 380 auto at more than twice the power should be good enough! Just show you how litle I know:)

Why exactly is a 380 not recomended for SD? not enough penetration or something else.
 
I tend to agree with my fellow Doc. Let me be clear, he is a big D, real Doc, While
am a small d doc, - army medic, police officer and EMT, then RN in the ER.
Adout 80% of gun shot victims survive.
I have been shot, and have shot others. Obviously I did not die, but the bad guys did.

Gentlemen, it is all about shot placement.

I got hit with a 7.63x39 in the Nam, used a 45 FMJ (issued) to return fire.
Got hit with a 9mm on the job, used a 125 gr 357 JHP (issued) to return fire.
My shot placement was better than thiers.

I am old and retired now but I still try to keep up my skill level. Shoot what your best at get real good with it, in all kind of situation, and pray you never have to use it for real.

Please forgive the war story ramblings of a fossil reliving the glory days.
 
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