Home defense long gun - which and why

[ArchAngelCD]

There's nothing like a short shotgun loaded with #4 Buck for HD.

 

[Gewehr98]

Eightball, I'm curious about your factual data.

00 buck penetrates far more than most people think, and unless he's living in a cinderblock house (doubt it), that round will fly through his walls AFTER hitting the BG, and potentailly kill a passer-by or some other occupier. Unless you're using some very small pellets, say, >6, you seriously risk overpenetration. Plus, many LEOs (at least in my area) tend to frown on 00 buck, because to them, that round has no reason other than premeditated "I'm gonna kill someone" shots. It is much easier, when asked, "why'd you use that particular load?" to say "Dove season"--I would suggest something along the lines of 8 shot. Why? Lots of mass, lower recoil, and there's an average of about 400 pellets per round; assuming you empty the magazine, even if the BG wouldn't die immediately, he would be in a lot of pain and hurt, and have around 3,000 small shots to pick out of his torso/bloodstream.

Would those be the same LEOs that have shotguns in their cruisers? And those LEOs don't remember why buckshot was invented - namely, for shooting deer (aka, "Bucks"). Any stigma attached to buckshot being a "kill someone" round is purely opinion and conjecture at best. Let me know how that pans out in court. I know of an early 19th century shot tower configured to drop the same buckshot, albeit fired from muzzleloading shotguns. Now, you don't suppose if buckshot works good for dropping deer, that perhaps it might be a good load for dropping two-legged varmints, would you? My own 870Mk1 is loaded with full-brass 2 3/4" 00 Buck, sourced from Vietnam-era Army ammunition plant guard stocks. They must've felt they were going to have to guard against deer attacks and all, since nobody in their right mind would use the load as a defensive round against Homo Sapiens...

Regarding overpenetration of 12 gauge buckshot vs. pistol caliber ammo and drywall:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

Summary of tests against sheets of drywall via the Box 'O Truth:

Lessons learned:
1. Notice that the #4 and #1 Buck penetrated 6 boards. In previous tests, 9mm, .45 ACP, and M-193 out of an AR all penetrated all 12 boards.

So, it seems that these loads do not "over-penetrate" as much as some have led us to believe.

The 00 Buck penetrated 8 boards, but was stopped by the 9th. Still not as much penetration as the pistol or rifle loads.

The slug penetrated all 12 boards.

2. Once again, please notice the size of the entrance spreads....2 1/2" to 3 1/2". Therefore, anyone that says, "With a shotgun, you don't even have to aim. Just point it in the general area of the bad guy, and you can't miss", does not know what they are talking about.

You can very easily miss with a shotgun. You must aim to hit your target.

3. The slugs were "bad" penetrators. By that, I mean that they will penetrate several interior walls. If you have loved ones in your home, consider this as you select your home defense weapon.

4. I "racked" the shotgun several times during the tests, and no bystanders lost control of their bowels.
Conclusion: Racking a shotgun will not make the bad guy faint.

Frankly, I was surprised that the shotgun did not penetrate more than it did. I had been led to believe that they penetrated more than a .223 rifle or a 9mm or .45 ACP. Such was not the case.

Amazing what you can learn by doing a little testing.

 

[Eightball]

For what it's worth, this was in conversation with a LEO on the local force for most of his adult life. His son, to help him out, didn't do "tests" with boards, he actually shot inside houses and such to test things out for our area, and those were his findings that I was referring to. Houses come in all shapes and sizes, my friend .

And if you'll notice, I didn't debate 00's lethality (it obviously kills people, quite effectively, and if you check my post, there is nothing denying this)--my "anecdote", if you will, was dealing specifically with smaller pellets. I was specifically pointing out that it doesn't instantly stop, as many people seem to assume, but that it does, in fact, go through things when it isn't "supposed" to do so.
Nor did I touch on the fact that you have to aim with shotguns--given the average distance inside houses around where I live, the shotshell would have expanded maybe 2 inches before it comes into contact with a wall (20 feet or so), and anyone who has actually fired scatterguns recognizes that they do not spread shot instantly.

I also did not debate the penetration between a shotshell round and a high-velocity rifle round, the only rifle round mentioned is .30 carbine.

I am aware that 00 as a "kill someone" round is conjecture, but people who rely on such conjecture happen to work in the local Law-enforcment offices.

All of my observations hold true in practice (not theory, using boards) around where I live; conditions are likely to differ in various places, but I hold by what I wrote--because, once again, despite the amount of "conjecture" by some local LEOs and the difference between penetration in boards and actual houses' walls by specific shotgun loads, those are factors where I reside. You are free to dispute this--after all, it is THR, and I cannot blame you with coming up with much more emperical data to show someone, which is universally applicable--most of mine is applicable only to a local area, but I figured I would at least interject something that may be a consideration for the homeowner in question.

And for everyone else out there, don't believe everything you read on the internet. After all, Al Gore invented it

(yes, I know it sprang from DARPAnet).

 

[Mike U.]

Gewehr98,

Thank you for posting that info. It is appreciated!

To any interested party,
I believe penetrating a human body would take a good deal of the OOMPH! out of a buckshot load. I don't doubt that some of the pellets would penetrate the average human torso, but, how much velocity is left after that passage? Probably not enough to worry the neighbors.

And, how about the kids in the next room? After plowing thru a human torso those pellets have to have slowed down a lot. I'm wondering if there would be enough velocity left to even pass thru a couple of sheets of drywall.
I could be wrong in this assumption, but, look at the performance of buckshot in ballistic gel. One thing I notice is there is not a lot of over-penetration in the gel. What penetration there is though is scary awesome in it's destructiveness.
--------------------------------------------------------
Edited to add:

Having followed a hunch and double checking my memory, it seems some 00 buck can readily over-penetrate sometimes up to 20+ inches.
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Shotgun slugs are a whole 'nother animal. One that has big teeth and should be carefully considered if you live with family in the other rooms of your abode.
Or, if your an apartment dweller.
Launching a 1 oz. slug @1600 FPS cannot bode well for others in your home. If you decide to use slugs or ANY firearm round for that matter, remember this all-important rule:
You launch it, you own it!

 

[Gewehr98]

I look at it from a different angle.

I've got pals in CHP who carry 12 gauges with buckshot. We have them in our squad cars, too. As a private citizen, why cannot I have the same defensive weapon and load as them?

Before I punched out of the Air Force at the 20-year mark, I accepted an invite of some LE friends. I did the Hogan's Alley bit with a 12 gauge and buckshot, just to see how well I could maneuver a 20" pump gun. I sure would like a 14" NFA shotgun that swings easier, but I didn't suffer too badly. The experience reinforced my confidence in the shotgun as a viable HD weapon, especially since I don't plan on doing house-clearing maneuvers from my safe room and phone's speed-dialer. The bad guy can have the TV and stereo, no problem. They come into the bedroom for my wife and I, then I'm not too worried about overpenetration into an otherwise-unoccupied house. (The dogs are in the bedroom with us at night, too) We're all set. Now, if you have an infant in the crib in the next bedroom, I completely understand. However, YMMV, and one cannot issue a blanket "shotgun + buckshot = HD bad juju" statement without knowing the particulars.

Conjecture is a horrible thing. It goes into that whole "he used handloads to defend himself" thing, or the "he used hollowpoints to inflict excessive suffering" thing. Court cases remain to determine whether that really swings the jury and judge, a justified shooting remains just that. Cops are known for uttering opinions of varying worth. In my new post-retirement career, I've been a sheriff's deputy for just shy of a year, and already I find my eyes rolled up in their sockets way too often because of the stuff I hear from folks you'd think would know better. As an "old fart rookie", I bite my tongue, but my BP spikes from all the grains of salt I'm taking those opinions with...

I liked this part of the Box o' Truth test:

But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.

Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.

Knocked that one out into the cheap seats, he did!

 

[Mike U.]

deleted redundant content.

 

[Eightball]

I know this has been said somewhere before, but I thought of the ultimate weapon for HD--it has:
1. No penetration
2. Guranteed kill
3. Large ammunition supply
4. Limited range
5. No possibility that the BG can "take it"

That weapon is: the FLAMETHROWER. Now, if only houses were fire-proof. Except that that wouldn't help our friend trying to help his, so we're back to square one.

 

[Stachie]

Shotty

Gotta choose the pump!!!

 

[AStone]

I didn't vote in the poll because my two long gun choices weren't options.

• 
  [*]870P 12 ga 00
  [*]336A .30-30

(Just ignore the 39A for HD.)

Why shotgun? Something intangible - maybe even irrational, relating more to emotion than rational thought - makes me prefer a shotgun for up close and personal SD as I'd be engaged in my studio. Just something about "shotgun" that says power. If I was engaged with shooters at 100 m, I'd not choose the shotgun.

Why Remington and not Mossberg? The Remington just felt better to me. Less a judgment about quality, more just how the gun fit.

Why 870P? I chose it after LOTS of research on THR a couple of years ago. The "P" has a slight edge in materials and workmanship over the standard 870s (which are still fine guns, as are the Mossbergs).

Why do I list the 336A? It's my camp utility rifle, wilderness rifle (until I go to AK) and deer rifle. It's in the studio. Admittedly I train with it more than the 870. In some circumstances, I might choose to grab it because I would be more likely to be accurate with it than the 870 (see other arguments in the thread about the danger of missing with a shotgun...).

Rifle or shotgun for me? It'll depend on the situation, the time of day, my state of mind. Both are within reach. (No kids in my house.)

Handguns?
642 in .38 spl or 686 in .357M depending on
which part of the house I'm in and the time of day.

 

[rangerruck]

the shotty is best 'cuz after you slam lots of tiny holes in the burglar, the shot likely wont penetrate , any more walls, much less go through your house, your neighbor's house, and kill him.

 

[BayouTeche77]

Every time this poll comes up I always go with the shotgun. It just makes sense to me. I can completely understand that at the distances you may face in a home invasion scenario don't really call for much "aiming" on your part with any of these guns, a seasoned shooter will just go with the flow and get the shot without any conscious aiming. But my argument is always that no matter how you slice it, at twenty feet a 2 1/2 inch spread beats the hell out of a 9mm point in space or a .30 inch diameter in space, or whatever caliber you use. It's just a bigger section with just a hair less chance of a miss.

I leave mine loaded with #4 magnum steel shot because this is what I hunt with mostly out of mine, duck, and I feel really comfortable with how this performs in my gun in the field and trust it in the home. There is always a handgun in reasonable range though, so if it was the closest at the time, I would be using a handgun if necessary. Also, if you have time to rack your shotgun when someone is in your house, you also have time to raise ten kinds of hell screaming and throwing things to let the BG know of your presence and intentions. I think a BG confronted by a screaming mad man would feel atleast a little discomforted. Then go ahead and give him a good hollywood pump is you still feel it is essential.

 

[Chuck R.]

My current HD gun is my Benelli M1S90, so I vote Shotgun. However I'm giving serious thought to changing to an AR.

As for shotgun loads, after doing some reading and taking a couple classes I used #1 buck for a HD load until I had the chance to pattern the Hornady TAP in a combat shotgun class. As for over penetrating, the bottom line is, anything with sufficient penetration to be reasonably effective on a human being, is going to penetrate walls. This is a pretty good article that supports the use of #1 Buck:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm


BTW in two tactical shotgun classes, the birdshot question arose and was not recommended. This is due to the lack of penetration. The FBI penetration tests call for 12” with handgun ammo, this takes into account outer clothing and shots at “bad angles’ IE through limbs etc. That's 12" regardless of distance.


http://greent.com/40Page/general/fbitest.htm

Here’s a decent article on shotgun wound ballistics from the Western Journal of Medicine of special note is page 155 which deals with mortality rates based on distance:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pag...geindex=3#page

Here's some more data, to include use of bird shot. Keep in mind, the distance was 3 yards or 9 ft. Even at that close distance the birdshot, although dramatic looking, didn't penetrate much past 9 inches. This is just ballistic gellatin, and doesn't take into account clothing or poor presentations.

http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html

After reading all of the above and talking to a couple of instructors, I think that bird shot is highly effective when used to defend against attacking birds.

Chuck

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Any weapon with enough penetration to reliably stop an aggressor with penetrate walls. if you miss. So, my concern would be a weapon which allows me the best shot palcement. For me, that means a rifle.

I vote for the M1 Carbine. It's light, handy, short, easy to load at a moment's notice, and has less blast and flash than an AR or AK. Loaded with 110 grain JSPs at ~1900 FPS, it'll do the job. This thread is gives me a reason to post my HD Rock Ola again:



It has a Ultimak rail on which are mounted a Bushnell red dot sight, and a Surefire G2 in a Viking Tactics mount. (The GI 30 rounder in the pic is just for show, at least until I test it. I stick with 15 round mags for serious work.)

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Training and familiarity is important. There is no question that the poll lists several capable tools that will get the job done if you have the training to use them.

On the overpenetration issue, the best solution is not to miss in the first place because as others have stated - anything that will effective stop a human being is going to zip right through several walls if you miss. This is one of the reasons it bugs me to see people recommend shotguns frequently on the basis of power.

To use an example, if you broke into a friend of mine's house. You'd probably catch all nine pellets from the shotgun center mass; because he trains with it regularly and has patterned his shotgun with his defensive ammo at different ranges.

You break into my house, I'm going to hit you with the shotgun; but probably a few pellets are going into the wild blue yonder because I don't train as often with it and I haven't patterned the loads I use in it. Still bad news for the bad guy; but not so great news for my guests either.

You put somebody behind the trigger who has never fired a firearm, or has very little experience, load the shotgun up with a nice super-powerful load like 3" Magnum 000 buck and let them fire enough just to get a good flinch; but not enough to pattern the load or get any meaningful training with it and you've probably got someone who is at least as much of a menace to others in the house as they are to intruders.

If you gave that same person in the last category a .30 Carbine M1, they would likely be a lot more effective with the same amount of training.

 

[Essex County]

I voted for the short barreled AR, but I would be equally happy with an M1 Carbine. I live in a rural log cabin so overpenetration is'nt an issue. If I was an apartment dweller I would have rethink this. Essex

 

[heypete]

My friend Rita votes for the shotgun:



Our loyal opposition, Bob the Zombie (with myself holding the wounded Bob), similarly votes for it:



#7 1/2 birdshot tears up cardboard and is useful on small birds. Small birdshot is not terribly useful against bad guys. #4 and larger buckshot is the way to go.

 

[silverlance]

for HD i use a sig p228. it's really not practical to keep a loaded shotgun lying aroudn the house at all times. and i dont want to open the safe several times every day. it's much easier to keep a pistol in a minivault. saves wear and tear on the safe and much easier to open.

 

[JShirley]

:banghead:

the round that everyone loves to hate for being "underpowered" in most situations would aid it in not overly penetrating walls in an urban setting

Very fast, lightweight rounds tend to expand and/or fragment much MORE reliably than slower, heavier ones (45 grain HP @ 3400 fps, say, vs. 110 grain JSP @ 1900 fps). When I actually shot .30 Carbine JSP at stuff, I was amazed at how deeply it penetrated.

I like the little carbine a lot, but don't assume anything about its penetration until you've actually tested it in media.

John

 

[a1huntingsupply]

MY long gun choice would be the AR-15 (mine is ready to go with 2-30rd magazines). I have read that due to the light weight bullet it will not travel through walls as easily as most people think. The high velocity bullet will fragment easily at close range in flesh. I also like the fact that you have plenty of rounds in the magazine if you have to face multiple threats.

I have seen first hand on two occasions what a shotgun will do.

One time was in self defense from about three feet and it was devastating. This happened to my family about 20 years ago.

The other time was a neighbor that was in a hunting accident. It hurt him pretty bad, fortunately it wasn’t life threatening.

 

[K.L.O.sako]

nothing, in my veiw matches a short barrelled shot gun for close range work. plus there is the over penatration issue( walls, doors, etc )that puts favor in the shotgun's corner as well. nothing, firearms wise, is as leathal at short range than the good ole shotgun.

 

[RandyB]

Out of the choices I would pick the AR-15. Looking at the actual testing on building materials, the handguns penerate more than the AR. I would have picked the shotgun if it had been a choice other than the mossberg. I nver have cared for them. Give me a 870, Ithaca 87/37 or a Winchester 1300 anyday. BTW. I have a 870 and 1911 for home defense.

 

[MHBushmaster]

kcmarine
wrote: "Shotgun. The only firearm which will blow a man off of his feet."

I hope my sarcasm detector is broken. I guess all those crew served firearms that we see in the military should be replaced with shotguns, eh?
The basic laws of physics would tend to disagree with your assertment of a shotgun, but hollyweird special effects types would agree with your statement and are probably glad that you think their effects are reality.

Shotguns = low capacity, slow recovery time, and tend to either really over penterate (slugs) or really under penetrate (any shot that is not buckshot).
That being said, shotguns (loaded out appropriately) are much preferable to stoping an aggressor than a pistol for home defense applications. Shotguns are great for shooting trap-skeet-upland game, breaching doors, and slinging slugs out to 75yards reliably. The racking of the slide to "scare off" an aggressor = :banghead: I wish people would stop perpetuating this ridiculous ascertation. In essence, your treating your pump-action shotgun as a "talisman", all you have to do is touch it in certain way and all evil will go away

Go with an AR15, 16" barrel, KISS except for an upgrade to an Eotech or an AIMpoint (illuminated reticle for lowlight) loaded out with the largest bullet grainage your barrel twist can accomodate, and don't look back.

 

[Oohrah]

Anything will penetrate a wall or two. A shotgun pattern doesn't
open much in an average sized room. A matter of user friendly
to the household, and being able to put into use. Living in rural
environment, the family dog mostly tells of any possible property
invasion long before there is a threat factor. It allows for a mind
set factor instead of surprise! Even though I marked
shot gun, I am just as apt to pick up a 1911 A1, slightly modified,
with expanding rounds.

 

[George Hill]

An M1 Garand? Are you kidding? Who voted to use a .30-06 for a home defense gun? Do you live next to the Huns or something?

 

[BigSoundRacing]

FN FS2000 because it is more tactical than my FAL.

Be safe, BSR