Homeland Security using Hi Point Carbine?

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:banghead:

This seems to be going nowhere. No one firearm will serve every task. Some are better suited to certain situations than others. Know your weapon and practice with it. I'd fear a well practiced civillian with a hipoint more than a donut junkie with an AR. If you want a HP carbine, buy one. If it fails, use the warranty. If you want an AR ask 355sigfan his opinion, I'm sure you'll get it.;)
 
Even the worst officers can pass the patrol rifle qualification. The reason is the guns are so easy to shoot well vs the shotgun and the handgun.
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By your own logic, doesn't this apply equally to the pistol-caliber carbine?
 
So has anyone else read the article yet? I started this thread thinking that Gun World was claiming DHS use to support their advertiser- MKS Supply. Nothing against the Hi Point ( I used to own one- worked great) but I'd think they'd rather use an M4, MP5, FN P90 etc.
 
As for 38 specials. We did fine with them until crime started to go up.
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When was that? According to the FBI's violent crime stats, violent crime has been declining for years. Since you're two years younger than I am, you must have become a LEO when you were 6 for this to be a true statement.


J
 
I think its a wonderful idea. High Points are cheap, and seem to be pretty good at what they are for, which is shooting. Since we taxpayers are footing the bill, I don't mind cops using less expensive guns. Face it, not every cop needs his own HK MP5. Personally, I would not buy one, they are SO ugly :)
 
I like the idea of using them to deter prison escapees.... they're pretty inexpensive, so correctional facilties should buy them by the thousand and distribute them to every residence and business within a 5-mile radius of the prison, along with 100rds or ammo, a check-in tag, and a $1000 bounty offer. Now THAT would deter prison escapees.... :evil:

DanO
 
When was that? According to the FBI's violent crime stats, violent crime has been declining for years. Since you're two years younger than I am, you must have become a LEO when you were 6 for this to be a true statement.
END QUOTE

Violent crime has been droppig since the 70's partly due to stepped up law enforcement. We have locked up 75% more people since the 60's. This has cut down on crime simply because more criminals are in jail and not out committing crimes. We have new threads today we did not have in the past. Active shooters are one. My first department had one of the first school shootings. Violent crime has been going down overall but police confrontations with armed criminals has been going up. The 38 special was never all that popular or effective. It was dubbed the widowmaker by those who had to carry it. WIth its 158 grain round nosed lead bullet. It is a lot more effective with good hollow points. But their are far better choices. The chances an officer will have to fire a gun in his career is not greater than it was in the past.

Crime is going down partly due to the hardwork of law enforcement.
Pat
 
We have locked up 75% more people since the 60's. This has cut down on crime simply because more criminals are in jail and not out committing crimes. We have new threads today we did not have in the past.
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Well, that's an interesting theory, Pat, but it's just not true. I'm certain more people are locked up today. For drug offenses (55% in 2004). About 11% are in for violent crimes.

Declining violent crime rates have a variety of causes, but the most probable is the rise in mean age of the population*. Since you're a dedicated and well schooled law enforcement professional, I know you're well aware that the vast majority of serious crimes are committed by males in the 14-25 y/o age range. You therefore fully understand the aging of the population is the reason for the fall in VCR, not how many druggies you gleefully place behind bars.

But I can understand why you would need those more effective firearms to use against all those violent drug users. Oh, wait- they're not in jail for violent crimes. :rolleyes:

I'm glad you have new threads, Pat. Are they grey? Black? Blue? Please tell me they're not white. Cute outfits are the most important piece of a law enforcement professional's gear.

John

*See pages 52, 54, 55 & 56
 
Its true that criminals age out. Its true that violent crime has gone down. its also true that criminals are better armed today than in the past. Its also true that we have threats today we did not have in the past. The old wheel gun just is not up to it. If you feel differently thats fine. But since myself and others in my generation are the ones risking our necks I believe we have every right to demand good equipment. Thank you very much. I have lost a few friends in this job. I don't care to lose any more. Also those so called drug users are not just in jail for drug use. Their in jail for crimes related to drug use. On the state level very few drug users get locked up. The sellers do. Our prisions are filled with violent offenders. Also drug users often turn to violent means to get their drugs. over 90% of crime is drug and alcohol related. It sounds like your a CJ student. I got my degree back in 99. Most of the theorys from the classroom hold no water in the real world.
Pat
 
the vast majority of serious crimes are committed by males in the 14-25 y/o age range
END QUOTE

Another fact you should be aware of is that while crime overall is going down. Juvenile crime is going up. Juvenile's are about havle of that 14 to 25 group;)
Pat
 
Golly, Pat, you do have some interesting ideas.

Let's take criminals being better armed. Hm...is that really true? If, in 1930, I could walk into Sears and walk out with a Thompson submachine gun without filling out any paperwork, the modern thug is better armed...how?

Without downplaying the risks law enforcement take daily, I expect to be someplace hot and sandy in the next few years, facing enemy armed with explosives and real weapons, so forgive me if I am unpersuaded by your "you can't really know how dangerous it really is" spiel.

90% of crime is drug and alcohol related
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Wow, that sounds significant, doesn't it? Especially since I already mentioned that over half of the people in prison ARE THERE FOR DRUG OFFENCES. You're not actually proving your point here, Pat.

A CJ student? No, I'm a historian.

Now, we're having this discussion because of your need to decry an inexpensive carbine. Why? Because you have something to prove. Why? Because you feel inadequate. Why?

I'm certain everyone here knows law enforcement has an important role to play, Pat, don't feel inadequate. Unfortunately, just because you believe something, does not automatically make it gospel.

The thing that really puzzles me, Pat, is why a cop in Alaska feels the need to
talk like an HRT-wannabe. I'm really glad you want to be high-speed. No, really, I am.



John
 
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You guys need to give up on 355SigFan

He'll warm up to Hi-Points right about the same time he figures out how to use the quote function.

Sorry, couldn't resist.
 
J Shirly your post was reported for the insult contained in. I am not a HRT wanna be. Also law enforemcentin Alaska is no different than anywhere else. Try to follow the highroad rules please. Might be a good idea since your a moderator. That whole lead by example thing.

As for your post.
QUOTE
Golly, Pat, you do have some interesting ideas.

Let's take criminals being better armed. Hm...is that really true? If, in 1930, I could walk into Sears and walk out with a Thompson submachine gun without filling out any paperwork, the modern thug is better armed...how?
END QUOTE

True but at more than $200 a copy back then only the most wealthy criminals could afford them.


QUOTE

Without downplaying the risks law enforcement take daily, I expect to be someplace hot and sandy in the next few years, facing enemy armed with explosives and real weapons, so forgive me if I am unpersuaded by your "you can't really know how dangerous it really is" spiel.
END QUOTE

I admire your service to your counrty. But remember cops and ems died first in this little war on terror. And your comments do down play the risks in law enforcement today. I have lost friends. I hope you don't in the sand box.


QUOTE
Wow, that sounds significant, doesn't it? Especially since I already mentioned that over half of the people in prison ARE THERE FOR DRUG OFFENCES. You're not actually proving your point here, Pat.
END QUOTE

Drug offenses is different from drug users. You took quite a leap from saying their all drug users. People usually don't do any time for simple drug use. Rather Drug dealers do. You know the guys that try to kill cops and others on a daily basis.

QUOTE
A CJ student? No, I'm a historian.
END QUOTE

Good then try to get your history correct.

QUOTE
Now, we're having this discussion because of your need to decry an inexpensive carbine. Why? Because you have something to prove. Why? Because you feel inadequate. Why?
END QUOTE

Because its a pos carbine that could cost someone their life if they have to depend on it. I bet you don't take one to the sand box with you.

QUOTE
I'm certain everyone here knows law enforcement has an important role to play, Pat, don't feel inadequate. Unfortunately, just because you believe something, does not automatically make it gospel.
END QUOTE

Its not gospel but you will have to consider many feel the same as I do on the subject. The military has pretty much dropped subguns. Most of the nations leo swat teams are switching to select fire or semi auto 223 carbines.

QUOTE
The thing that really puzzles me, Pat, is why a cop in Alaska feels the need to
talk like an HRT-wannabe. I'm really glad you want to be high-speed. No, really, I am.

We just don't really need, or want, to hear your silly fantasies.

John
END QUOTE

Here is the unprofessional rub. As a cop I feel the need to be safe and have the best tools available so I can do my job. I also keep up on continuing training. I don't work in LA but as a cop in Alaska I do faces dangers as well. I have been in some tight situations. I have not had to kill anyone. And for that I thank god. But there were some times that were close. My life is no more a fantasy than yours. I don't understand why you feel the need to insult law enforcement as a profession and Alaskan law enforcement in general to make your point.
Pat
 
355sigfan said:
Swingset if you haven't noticed the quote funciton is down.
Pat
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Oh? Oh? Owned.

~GnSx
edit: type {quote="username"}quoted text{/quote} to quote something, with square brackets instead of squirrely brackets.
 
The Quote function is down, because we took it down. :)

Getting off-topic...
Drug offenses is different from drug users. You took quite a leap from saying their all drug users. People usually don't do any time for simple drug use. Rather Drug dealers do. You know the guys that try to kill cops and others on a daily basis.
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Point of fact, Pat, but an astoundingly high proportion of the folks doing prison time in this country have a charge related to simple possession. My B.S. in Criminal Justice has taught me the research methods to recognize this. My 6 years of working in the criminal justice field have let me observe this. Most of the possessors are users. Sure, some deal on the side, or even as a main gig, but let's not you and I kid ourselves that the majority of our drug busts have been Big Time Dealers. Sure, lots of those folk initially get probation. But when they're popped again a few months or a year down the road, and their probation gets revoked, they're looking at jail or prison time.
 
law enforemcentin Alaska is no different than anywhere else
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Untrue. EVERY law enforcement agency has to consider what we in the Army refer to as "METT-T" (Mission, Enemy, Terrain, Troops and equipment, and Time). Rural agencies will have different specific needs than urban ones, etc. (But, since you're in Alaska, you KNOW this.)

Since you're in Alaska, depending on your locale, your high speed AR fixation could lead to someone dying if they are in an area with high numbers of large animals, and are armed with an M4 instead of a good shotgun loaded with slugs. Yes, I now suggest a good carbine for defensive purpose for MOST people, but there IS no single "best" solution for everyone.

at more than $200 a copy back then only the most wealthy criminals could afford them
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Hello? You can buy an automatic weapon on the streets today for how much? Oh, that's right, you can buy one practically anywhere, for $50. Not.

Pat, I do not downplay the very real risks law enforcement officers face every day. At the same time, it's not usually quite the same thing as facing IEDs and incoming mortar fire.

I've lost friends too, and sometimes, just pieces of friends. :(

People usually don't do any time for simple drug use. Rather Drug dealers do. You know the guys that try to kill cops and others on a daily basis.
Click to expand...

If a drug dealer "tried to kill cops on a daily basis" he would be listed as a violent crimimal, not as being in jail for a drug offence. And "drug dealer= guy who tries to kill cops and others on a daily basis" is a pretty major non sequiture, even for you.

History correct? I'm sorry, I missed the authoritative sources, such as the US Census Bureau, that you quoted. Point them out to me again. (See, that's what historians do. They look for reliable sources to explain past happenings leading to current trends.)

You're right, Pat, I probably will have an M16 or M4 (or M9), not a 9mm carbine, if I go to the sand box. Oh, wait- did I just mention I MIGHT HAVE A 9MM HANDGUN. I'm sorry- I'd prefer a 9mm carbine to a 9mm handgun practically every damn day, and did I mention I used to carry a 60mm mortar? Where does indirect fire capability fit into the law enforcement mission? What's that? The law enforcement mission is different than the military one? Oh, so they might have different gear? I see.

You mean, for instance, (depending on locale), a longarm that could stop a large dangerous animal might be preferable for the local LEO than a high capacity autoloading carbine? Wow, that's a great point. What's that? The LEO needs a firearm with which to engage suspects at 400 meters? (Why is it okay to laugh at tactical posers, but not okay to laugh at tactical posing by those with badges? Just a rhetorical question.)

I'm sorry, that doesn't sound like the typical need of a good law enforcement officer. It could happen, yes, but then again, it's not very darn likely, is it?

Pat, I'm not insulting law enforcement in general, or Alaskan enforcement in particular. I have considered just such work myself, though I think in the long run I'll make more working at a think tank than working as Alaskan LEO.

What I am questioning is your ability to accurately deduce the threats you face, and furthermore, to say I seriously doubt your ability to semi-eloquently elucidate such threats to this audience is a massive understatement.

When poor deduction is combined with a need to present your One, True opinion to the community, we have a problem.

So, though I think they're ugly, I do believe the Hi-Point carbine is a very cost-effective possible option for some law enforcement agencies.

John
 
A fellow shooter at the range brings his HiPoint carbine out
for the Ladies' Day that follows our BP cartridge matches;
the gun shoots and shoots and shoots and never jams and
even newbies can hit the 100 yd pig silhouettes with it. And
he uses Winnie White Box and Wolf, not exactly premium ammo.

Ignore your feelings about the HiPoint pistol: the carbine is real.
 
JShirley

Quite frankly based on what you have said you have no idea about the needs of modern law enforcement. So debating this point with you is like arguing with an anti gun zelot who does not have the facts. We going to get no where fast.

I hope you stay safe over there. Losing someone to and IED is no different than simply losing someone to a 7.62 SKS on a gun call. I am going to bow out before this thread gets uglier and more insults are thrown.
Pat
 
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Shucks, Pat. Since I'm giving both an overall picture, and links to specific data- unlike you- I kinda fail to see how you could say conversation with me is "like arguing with an anti gun zelot who does not have the facts". I do have the facts, and I have demonstrated so. I'm sorry if the facts conflict with your ideas, so by all means, discard them. Pesky facts!
---
Tactical? Not me. :p

I was speaking to accurately assessing one's needs and resources. For some, the Hi Point carbine, though ugly and inexpensive, could be a useful tool, unless you're unspeakably tactical. :D

John
 
I just tuned in here, and the Hi-point aside I need to address this first:

With Colt you don't need a no bs lifetime warranty because they don't shatter when you drop them. Their built military tough.
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Are you out of your mind? Colt is built kindergarden tough. I had 82 Colts delivered to me that were ALL total and utter CRAP! And to top it off, they had never been fired. The biggest single problem was that the receiver notch and barrel lug on top were different sizes. After a few rounds the guys were noticing that the barrels were loose and would turn slightly in the receiver.

It became obvious that Colt knew about it before they went out when we took a few unfired guns and pulled them apart. The rigns were tourqed on to nearly twice what the manual calls for. When they were tightened to spec the barrels were loose.

When we ran the complaint up the chain Colt said in a nutshell, "Too bad, they sat in the warehouse so long that they are now out of warranty". This turned out to not be an issolated incident, so Colt no longer has the military contract.

So in MNSHO, the Colts are no more suited for LEO work than the Hi-point carbine.
 
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