How do I know I'm not selling a gun to a felon?

[MachIVshooter]

The gun is his property. He can sell it to whoever he wants. End of story.

Pretty much, but the law read that if you knowingly sell to someone who is prohibited by law, you are committing a felony.

When I do private transfers, I generally use personal judement. If I don't know the person from Adam, I have form that I use. Basically just a bill of sale with make, model, caliber and S/N. But I get full name, address, DL # and phone #. It also has a two paragraph section at the end of which the buyer must sign. That section basically covers all the stuff you must answer no to on the 4473. If they refuse to do this, I don't sell b/c it is my arse if they go shoot a convenience store clerk with it the next day. Thus far I have never had anyone refuse to sign.

If I do know the buyer personally or on the reference of a friend I trust, I use a much simpler bill of sale with make, model and S/N plus their full name and phone #.

On the same note, I use the more formal version when I buy privately from someone I don't know. Since it contains both buyer and seller info and signatures, it clears me (the buyer) if the weapon was reported stolen. If seller refuses to sign, I don't buy. Had this happen once with a guy who was trying to unload a Ruger Vaquero .45 Colt for $150. Good deal, but I don't want to recieve stollen property, even if it is free.

 

[Sleeping Dog]

If I'm selling a rifle, I ask the guy if he's got a felony conviction and I take his word. Then I record all his driver license info, in case the cops come asking some day. No license, no sale.

Rarely, I just get a bad feeling about someone who wants to buy, so no sale. I hope I don't get sued violating somebody's rights.

Regards.

 

[Molon Labe]

If I'm selling a rifle, why should I care if the guy is a felon?

 

[Hoppy590]

idealogical differances from the .gov aside

you should care because it will be ur ass on the line in the end. we all know the law, how they interpet/MAKE UP the law,and what you will be arrested for are rarely the same thing

 

[rhubarb]

Here is an approximate transcript of my conversation with the guy who purchased a .22 rifle from me at a gun show a month ago. I walked in the door with the gun with a for sale sign on it and not two minutes later:

He: How much for the .22?
Me: $95 like it says on the sign.
He: Will you take $80?
Me: Sure, but the bolt and magazine in my back pocket are an additional $15.
He: Uhh
Me: Just kidding, I'll take $80.
He: 20, 40, 60, 80 - Here ya go.
Me: Thanks. Good luck.

Why should the government care what I buy and sell with another private citizen?

 

[plexreticle]

I'm more concerned about buying from a felon.

 

[david_the_greek]

I agree with it being an Individuals right, but I like to keep documents for my own record and because if something did ever happen, i'm off the hook. Lets not give anti's any ammo by saying "why should I care if I'm selling to a felon?" If you feel the need to get a backround check then by all means go for it. Personally I'd just like the persons drivers license info and a receipt of sale signed and dated. If the person seems ok (yes subjective, yes they can lie), and they willing give me info I ask for then I feel much more confident they are legit. I do not however, intend to ever give up that info to any angency unless I am being detained as a suspect for murder because my fomer firearm was found. but hey if you want to give your "evil" deadly fully automatic assault carbine with an endless 30rnd magazine (haha oh my) to someone with out proof, I'm sure some anti's would love to hear about it.

 

[berettaman]

Remember that a bill of sale is another paper trail. So what if you sell your private property to a felon.He broke the law,you didn't.Plus if you don't give the guy a reciept,when the law comes and askes if you sold a gun to a known felon you just say,let me see,no that guns missing,he must have stolen it,yes officer i'd like to press charges.The guys a felon and he lies and steals too.Who are they gonna believe?

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

How do I know I'm not selling a gun to a felon?

Why should you worry about it in the first place? The state let this guy out of prison, didn't they? The state must consider this guy no longer a threat, so why should you concern yourself with whether this guy has a gun?

Let's get real and keep these guys locked up.

Woody

"Freedom is good for the individual, good for the human condition, and good for society as well. It is the only way individual accountability can be valid, for a person who is not free to do as he sees fit cannot be blamed... or genuinely rewarded." K.L.Dimond

 

[Prince Yamato]

Pretty much it's if you KNOWINGLY sell to a felon. If you unknowingly sell to someone who is deemed a public threat and you get on the news please respond with the following:

"If the person is that dangerous, what the hell are they doing out of prison?"

 

[MachIVshooter]

Rarely, I just get a bad feeling about someone who wants to buy, so no sale. I hope I don't get sued violating somebody's rights.

No one has a right to buy your used merchandise. Unless you blatently state that you will not sell to them because they are X-race or of this religion, etc., in which case they would be after you for defamation, no worries. Besides, how do youthink it would go over in a court of law if someone sued you for not selling them a gun when they were prohibited from buing one?

Although there have been cases of junkies calling the police because they thought their dealer ripped them off, and then being arrested when it turns out the drugs were authentic.........

 

[oldfart]

Ok guys, suppose - just suppose you see someone breaking out the window on a car and getting in. Further suppose you whip out your legally carried gun and 'prone him out' on the ground, call 911 on your cellphone and wait until Officer Friendly gets there.
When he does get there, what does he do first, pat you on the back for doing such a good deed or 'prone you out' too?
Y'see, Officer Friendly doesn't like it when you do his job, especially if you do it better than he does. After all the dust has settled he'll give you back your gun (maybe) and haul away the bad guy. But he still doesen't like you doing his job!
So why do it? At best, you'll get of with only slightly less hassle than the toad that broke into the car and at worst, you won't get your gun back for days or weeks. Well, you do it because you think it's the right thing to do and you believe the police appreciate the help.
Wrong!!
So why bother to run background checks on face-to-face buyers? Sure, there's a slight possibility that the buyer is an idiot looking for a gun to use for holding up stores but how the heck can you know that? A few months ago some businessman in Reno took issue with the judge that presided over his rape, er, divorce and ventilated said judge with an AR clone after killing his ex-wife. He not only would have passed the NICS check but he - as an owner of a string of pawnshops - had initiated God only knows how many similar checks.
The guy that killed the Amish girls had passed the NICS as did a whole lot of other people who legally bought guns from stores and then changed their way of doing business by either killing someone or robbing them.
The background check only tells you if someone has done something wrong in the past, not whether they'll go bad in the future. I have personal knowledge of people who have had problems with the law at some point in their lives and then gone on to lead an exemplary life.
Remember, while the law is always the law, it isn't always right. If you're so worried about what might happen that you'll infringe on somebody's right to keep and bear arms you are the unpaid agent of an overreaching government and the not-too-distant relative of the 'block wardens' of Communist Russia.

 

[LAR-15]

I might look at someone's photo ID but that is it.

Any records I get will be lost by me eventually anyway and if I am not legally required to get/keep any, I will not do it.

I hate trying to keep records and keep them in order.

 

[plexreticle]

I'm not going to ID someone for a private sale. They want to buy it and I want to sell it. I may do a bill if the guy wants some kind of recipt.

Cops show up and ask me about the gun. I say; "I sold it at the gun show. Here is a copy of the bill of sale."

 

[gezzer]

If you are uncomfortable just sell through a dealer and pay the fee. Who cares what others want it is your sale and your rules.

 

[vmfrantz]

A felon wont buy your gun, they will probably steel it. You know, a zebra wont lose its stripes.

 

[Davidq762]

OldFart & fjolnirsson

You said it better than I could have. Felons are in prison. An ex-convict who has served his time is a free man, same as I am. He deserves the same rights and priveleges I have. If he is too dangerous to trust with a gun, the Gorram government shouldn't have let him out. I will never stand in the way of someone trying to defend themselves or their family. Think about it. As much as folks here gripe and grumble about the "right" to self defense, and how states that disallow carry are creating a society of victims, doesn't the law regarding felons and firearms do the same thing?

And both of you have hit the nail on the head. According to the TRUE RULE of Constitutional Law.

"All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and void."
- Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. (2 Cranch) 137 (1803).

All 'gun control' laws are Repugnant to the United States Constitution, which is the Supreme Law of the land, despite what nine Usurping monkeys with black robes and gavels in their paws 'stare decisis-ly decide. To Wit:

"It is a fortunate thing that the objection to the Government has been made on the ground I stated; because it will be practicable, on that ground, to obviate the objection, so far as to satisfy the public mind that their liberties will be perpetual, and this without endangering any part of the Constitution, which is considered as essential to the existence of the Government by those who promoted its adoption...."

"In some instances they assert those rights which are exercised by the people in forming and establishing a plan of Government. In other instances, they specify those rights which are retained when particular powers are given up to be exercised by the Legislature. In other instances, they specify positive rights, which may seem to result from the nature of the compact. Trial by jury cannot be considered as a natural right, but a right resulting from a social compact which regulates the action of the community, but is as essential to secure the liberty of the people as any one of the pre-existent rights of nature."

-James Madison, June 8, 1789 House of Representatives, Amendments to the Constitution

"This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty....The right of self-defense is the first law of nature; in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Whenever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction."

- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries (1803)

I. Natural Rights of the Colonists as Men;

"Among the natural rights of the Colonists are these: First, a right to life; Secondly, to liberty; Thirdly, to property; together with the right to support and defend them in the best manner they can. These are evident branches of, rather than deductions from, the duty of self-preservation, commonly called the first law of nature...."

"In short, it is the greatest absurdity to suppose it in the power of one,
or any number of men, at the entering into society, to renounce their
essential natural rights, or the means of preserving those rights; when the
grand end of civil government, from the very nature of its institution, is
for the support, protection, and defence of those very rights; the principal
of which, as is before observed, are Life, Liberty, and Property. If men,
through fear, fraud, or mistake, should in terms renounce or give up any
essential natural right, the eternal law of reason and the grand end of
society would absolutely vacate such renunciation."

"The right to freedom being the gift of God Almighty, it is not in the power of man to alienate this gift and voluntarily become a slave."

- Samuel Adams, The Rights of the Colonists, (November 20, 1772)

Our right is a God-given, Inherent and Natural one. Shall not be Infringed means exactly what was written.

Neither the state or federal governments have any truly legal authority over our right. The only power they have is what has been illegally and unConstitutionally grabbed from us. The contention gov. has used, in error, is that they have control over our right because of the 'militia'. This is proven false here: "Rights of the citizen declared to be --" and here: 'for the common defence' (?).

It's all Constitutionally Proven here: The Right

One of the best quotes I've seen on the subject is this:

"You, Sir, triumph in the supposed illegality of this body;
but, granting your supposition were true, it would be a matter
of no real importance. When the first principles of civil
society are violated, and the rights of a whole people are
invaded, the common forms of municipal law are not to be
regarded. Men may then betake themselves to the law of nature;
and, if they but conform their actions, to that standard, all
cavils against them, betray either ignorance or dishonesty.
There are some events in society, to which human laws cannot
extend; but when applied to them lose all their force and
efficacy. In short, when human laws contradict or discountenance
the means, which are necessary to preserve the essential
rights of any society, they defeat the proper end of all laws,
and so become null and void."

- Alexander Hamilton, The Farmer Refuted, 23 Feb. 1775
Papers 1:86--89, 121--22, 135--36

The ONLY Constitutionally legal time that an American citizen can be disarmed, is if they have been legally imprisoned. If they have served their lawfully imposed sentence, and are set free, they are again in 'the state of nature' and entitled to defend themselves. Our Rights are "Inalienable" and "Perpetual".

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

Dunno if this is true, but in Florida, if their driver's license number ends in a "1" they have a felony. If it is a "0", they have never had a felony.

 

[MechAg94]

I just use my best judgment. If I don't knowingly sell to a felon, I am not breaking a law.

I too am more concerned with buying a stolen gun or one used in a crime.

 

[Gordon Fink]

It’s legal here, I’m not sure whatstate your in but ,for instance, CA requires you go thru a FFL.

For firearms less than 50 years old and all handguns.

Unfortunately, all my firearms were purchased illegally.

~G. Fink

 

[jrou111]

I only will sell to someone I already know.