How often do you need more than three shots when big game hunting?

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Nevertheless, if you gut shoot an elk with a .458 Win Mag it isn't going to go down faster than the heart shot elk that got hit by a .243 Win. That's reality.

Do you think that anyone would disagree with you or that this is a revelation to anyone?

Shot placement really is key, regardless of what you're shooting, and regardless of the stories you've heard.

I don't believe it's that simple. We can bracket the problem with the extremes of a 40gr .22 LR bullet through the heart of an elk or a 750gr .50 BMG bullet. The effects on the heart and the animal wouldn't be the same so shot placement is one important part of the equation but you can't disregard the other variables that also play a big part. If we move closer towards the middle of the road and away from the extreme examples above, we see less obvious differences and plenty of overlap. However, if an individual shoots a larger, faster and effective bullet well enough then what possible reason would that person have to choose something smaller?

For many of us it's a time consuming, physically demanding and expensive proposition to go elk or deer hunting. Stacking the odds in our favor by practicing with what we use, bringing enough ammunition, having good optics, using a cartridge that offers a wider range or performance over a wider range of situations, choosing a suitable bullet, being in decent shape and so on are all good things. I would never fault a hunter for bringing "too much gun" if they're competent with what they bring. Many on these and similar forums assume that no one can shoot a magnum rifle well or that a good shooter has no need of a magnum cartridge. I don't agree with either.
 
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Honesty is not to be recommended, Capt. Everybody can drop any damned animal in North America at 600+ yards on the first shot. And nobody needs more than a 243 Win to do it. Because shot placement is everything and everybody has range finding uberscopes. Except you.

Oh, and me. Thus, my four misses on a coyote way out there on Sunday...
Sorry. I'll fib next time.
 
Deer and elk? Never. Usually carry 8 rounds (2 magazines) for my Savage 116 in .30-06.

Antelope? Many times. Then again I did a lot of doe permits to fill my freezer back when leftover tags were cheap in Wyoming.
 
It happens, muleys, unless pressured, are notorious for trying to locate the shot, or stopping a VERY short distance to determine the seriousness of the threat, jumped up a doe for a kid last year, he only took shots while she was standing still, and missed 5 times, then she cleared the fence and was safe, stopped again to look 250 yds away and then beelined to the cedars.
Second largest mulie I ever shot was shot at about 300 yards on a windy day. My two first shots were off, but the deer, instead of running, was confused by the gunfire and wind, and wasnt sure where the shots came from, giving me a 3rd opportunity which I capitalized on.....thankfully, as this was done in front of 4 witnesses, 2 of which were my nephews that I both love to impress, and who would never let me forget the time I missed "that giant mulie up north" LOL That said, I will put most MATURE mule deer bucks in the "smart as any whitetail" category. One of the largest I have ever seen in person frequented our ranch a few years while I was a kid.....you NEVER, EVER saw this deer in a low spot....he was on high ground, where you could often see him, but could never, ever actually approach him. Wind direction didnt seem to matter....he and his does would spot you regardless. When I was about 13, I had a cross canyone shot of maybe 300-400 yards, the only shot I know of that anyone ever got at him.....and I missed. It haunts me to this day, 25 years later. I THOUGHT if I missed, he'd go exactly where my father was stationed, but although he heard the shot, he never ever saw a trace of that deer. I can only assume that particular critter died of old age, or was taken after he was in decline, or poached, becasue word travels fast in our rural area, and no one ever bragged about killing him.
 
Good thread. I have not hunted anything larger than whitetail to date. I have out-and-out missed on occasion. But the deer I have taken all went down with one shot--some DRT, others had to be tracked. I have used a second shot to hasten the passing of a dying-but-not-yet-dead deer.

Because I have historically hunted in places and times where I could legally take more than one animal, I generally fill the box magazine (4) at the truck, but do not chamber a round until commencing the hunt, be that on stand or still hunting. I do carry a couple of loose rounds in a pocket, too. Full cylinder if hunting with a revolver, no extra rounds.
 
Do you think that anyone would disagree with you or that this is a revelation to anyone?



I don't believe it's that simple. We can bracket the problem with the extremes of a 40gr .22 LR bullet through the heart of an elk or a 750gr .50 BMG bullet. The effects on the heart and the animal wouldn't be the same so shot placement is one important part of the equation but you can't disregard the other variables that also play a big part. If we move closer towards the middle of the road and away from the extreme examples above, we see less obvious differences and plenty of overlap. However, if an individual shoots a larger, faster and effective bullet well enough then what possible reason would that person have to choose something smaller?

For many of us it's a time consuming, physically demanding and expensive proposition to go elk or deer hunting. Stacking the odds in our favor by practicing with what we use, bringing enough ammunition, having good optics, using a cartridge that offers a wider range or performance over a wider range of situations, choosing a suitable bullet, being in decent shape and so on are all good things. I would never fault a hunter for bringing "too much gun" if they're competent with what they bring. Many on these and similar forums assume that no one can shoot a magnum rifle well or that a good shooter has no need of a magnum cartridge. I don't agree with either.

Ugh. I just wrote a detailed response to your post, then my browser quit as I tried to send it, and it was lost. So, here's the abbreviated version:

I think we both realize that the extremes aren't ideal. Neither of us would recommend shooting an elk with a .22LR, and neither of us believe you need a .50 BMG to anchor one of these animals.

But, shot placement really does matter, because a bad shot from a big rifle is going to be a lot less effective than a great shot from a marginal rifle. An animal shot through the heart is going to go down, and it's going to go down relatively soon. That doesn't mean that the animal might not run 100 yards (or maybe more) on sheer adrenaline, but whether you placed a bullet from a .375 H&H Mag through its heart, or I placed a 140 grain bullet from my .260 Remington through its heart, it's going to go down very soon.

Now, I realize that there are plenty of competent big bore shooters out there. I have friends that are quite competent with their rifles, and some of them carry the big magnums. But, I've also seen a lot of anecdotal conjecture on gun forums over the years, talking about how "inadequate" any given cartridge was following some kind of lost game situation. Many of these instances involved cases where an animal was gut shot, or otherwise not shot in an immediately vital area. And, unfortunately, some hunters who really should be working on honing their shooting skills are instead using the big magnums as a crutch in the field (a false sense of security, in my mind). Hell, I've heard these discussions at the gun store counters around here before... some good ol' boy will be standing there asking for a bigger caliber rifle for this year's hunt because he wants something that will have 'knock down power' even if he delivers a bad shot like he did during the previous season. Unfortunately that's just not how it works, and close isn't good enough when it comes to anchoring an animal quickly and humanely.

There's also an issue of terminal ballistics over distance. While there's no denying that your .375H&H Mag has more energy at the muzzle than my .260 Remington (one of those "little" 6.5mm class rifles, similar to the 6.5 Creedmoor), that equation drastically changes the further we go down range. Without being able to directly compare and contrast our two loads, I can't give you an exact figure here, as the different loadings from both guns can move the point on the power curve forward or back a bit. But, the reality is this: somewhere between about 300 and 500 yards my .260 Remington begins to have more energy than your .375H&H Magnum. At 500 yards my bullet is still arriving at nearly 2,200 fps, and it gets there about 1/4 second faster than your bullet.

My point in all of this is to highlight the fact that those of us who hunt with 6.5's aren't being reckless, or wantonly disregarding sound hunting techniques. To the point of the original thread, I also don't think it changes anything with regard to how much spare ammo any of us should carry. I always carry enough ammo to get the job done and then some. I probably have 10+ rounds on me on any given hunt, and I always plan to get the job done in one shot. If one shot won't get the job done, I've got a second round that almost certainly will.
 
There's also an issue of terminal ballistics over distance. While there's no denying that your .375H&H Mag has more energy at the muzzle than my .260 Remington (one of those "little" 6.5mm class rifles, similar to the 6.5 Creedmoor), that equation drastically changes the further we go down range. Without being able to directly compare and contrast our two loads, I can't give you an exact figure here, as the different loadings from both guns can move the point on the power curve forward or back a bit. But, the reality is this: somewhere between about 300 and 500 yards my .260 Remington begins to have more energy than your .375H&H Magnum. At 500 yards my bullet is still arriving at nearly 2,200 fps, and it gets there about 1/4 second faster than your bullet.

We're getting a little off topic here but I think your numbers are way off. I'm not sure what your .260 Rem load looks like but I'm shooting a 250gr Barnes TTSX at 2,800 fps. I also handload for and shoot a 6.5 Creemoor and push a 140gr ELD at 2,800 fps which beats the factory load by a good margin. Even if I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're pushing a 143gr ELD-X at 2,800 fps, the 250gr TTSX has considerably more energy everywhere out to 600 yards. Now factor in that the ELD-X isn't a particularly tough bullet so if you were to pick a solid copper bullet such as the Barnes 127gr LRX it gets even worse for the 6.5 Creedmoor.

Here's what my 250gr .375 cal load looks like for energy out to 600 yards compared to a 143gr 6.5mm load (see below). Since you mention flight time, my bullet gets to 500 yards in 0.648 seconds whereas the 143gr takes 0.607 seconds which is a difference of 0.041 seconds so I'm not sure what your 1/4 second faster comment is based on.

So what are the details of your .260 Rem hunting load so that we can compare apples to apples? If you want to pick a legitimate argument in favor of the .260 Rem or 6.5 CM at long range then velocity might be the better point to make relating it to bullet expansion. With the bullet I'm shooting I probably need to limit shots to about 500 yards and ideally closer to 400 yards to keep above the 2,000 fps lower limit for decent bullet expansion. For the 127gr LRX the effective range might be limited to 550 yards or so. Bullet performance at 500 to 600 yards for any of the bullets discussed here is conjecture of course. Hornady shows a photo comparing expansion of the 143gr ELD-X at 1,800 fps and 2,600 fps and both look decent.

Range > .375 H&H > 6.5 CM
0 yards > 4351 ft-lb > 2489 ft-lb
50 yards > 4054 ft-lb > 2372 ft-lb
100 yards > 3773 ft-lb > 2260 ft-lb
150 yards > 3509 ft-lb > 2153 ft-lb
200 yards > 3259 ft-lb > 2050 ft-lb
250 yards > 3023 ft-lb > 1950 ft-lb
300 yards > 2801 ft-lb > 1854 ft-lb
350 yards > 2592 ft-lb > 1762 ft-lb
400 yards > 2396 ft-lb > 1674 ft-lb
450 yards > 2212 ft-lb > 1589 ft-lb
500 yards > 2039 ft-lb > 1508 ft-lb
550 yards > 1878 ft-lb > 1430 ft-lb
600 yards > 1726 ft-lb > 1355 ft-lb
 
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143gr ELD-X at 2,800 fps
Just a note, I got 2800+ (backed off from "MAX" at 2850) with the ELDX from my 22" 6.5CM, but loads a hot one....
To be honest, I dont consider there much comparison in terms of "power" between the .375, and a short 6.5 at any reasonable range. Now where I see an issues, is can that power be delivered accurately, from a rifle the shooter is willing to carry. Obviously your capable of shooting your rifle well. Others would have to make that decision for themselves based on their own ability, and or want/need.

Which is part of why im going to the larger 6.5x284 for a lite rifle, and now that weve talked thru it, a .264 on my next rebarrel of one of my heavier rifles.
Id like to get 2900-2950 from the 143s in the 6.5x284, and 3150-3200 from the .264....Will I? dunno, but ill try.
I can get more power from a couple of my bigger rifles, and shoot them pretty well, including big .30s, but I dont want to get kicked that hard unless I REALLY need to.

I do still want a .375 among other big guns, but thats more because i WANT one than me personally having a real use for them....But hey if i got a .375, i wouldnt have to borrow a .300
 
To be honest, I dont consider there much comparison in terms of "power" between the .375, and a short 6.5 at any reasonable range.

Even after looking at the ft-lb of energy listed above? Regardless, let's drop this part of the discussion since this thread is about rifle capacity and how many shots are needed to dispatch an animal rather than the merits of one cartridge over another. I'm not giving up my .375 H&H for deer/elk hunting, I'm not going to use my 6.5 CM for deer/elk hunting, and I don't see the 6.5 Creedmoor being accepted as the minimum requirement for a dangerous game rifle in Africa any time soon. :D
 
Even after looking at the ft-lb of energy listed above? Regardless, let's drop this part of the discussion since this thread is about rifle capacity and how many shots are needed to dispatch an animal rather than the merits of one cartridge over another. I'm not giving up my .375 H&H for deer/elk hunting, I'm not going to use my 6.5 CM for deer/elk hunting, and I don't see the 6.5 Creedmoor being accepted as the minimum requirement for a dangerous game rifle in Africa any time soon. :D

Just curious as to why you use a .375 for deer hunting?
 
Even after looking at the ft-lb of energy listed above? Regardless, let's drop this part of the discussion since this thread is about rifle capacity and how many shots are needed to dispatch an animal rather than the merits of one cartridge over another. I'm not giving up my .375 H&H for deer/elk hunting, I'm not going to use my 6.5 CM for deer/elk hunting, and I don't see the 6.5 Creedmoor being accepted as the minimum requirement for a dangerous game rifle in Africa any time soon. :D
I was agreeing with you, numbers included LOL

I do kinda feel its pertinent in the discussion at hand, 3 rounds from a gun like the .375, might be more effective than 4-5 Rounds from a smaller cartridge like the short 6.5s, If the shooter can deliver them correctly. This has in my opinion more to do with opening larger holes with any given bullet type.
All that based on how effectively the round can be applied. If a shooter is honest with them selves and decides a .300-375 or what have you, is more than they can comfortably shoot under stress, from a gun they are willing to carry, than a smaller gun that holds more rounds might well be a better answer.
 
Just curious as to why you use a .375 for deer hunting?

Because I shoot the rifle well and the load is very effective on deer and larger game without unnecessary or undesirable meat damage typical of some other magnums. Also, sometimes we head out with tags for both deer and elk and don't know which we might encounter so it's good to have a rifle that will work well for either.
 
I always take extra ammunition with me when hunting but I don't see a need for more than 3 rounds in a rifle or in the case of a single shot I think 2-3 extra rounds at hand to reload. I don't shoot at running deer and I've never shot more than twice in rapid succession that I can remember
 
I don't live out West, where I can appreciate that long shots on elk and antelope may make the flatter trajectory of a magnum attractive.


But in my experience if you are shooting beyond 200 yards, you either practice and you KNOW where your rifle hits, or you don't. Regardless of the difference between say a 308, and a 300 Rem Ultra Mag.


There's nothing in WV that needs more than a 30-06 or 308 to be killed. Forget the magnum round, buy the sufficient cartridge, save money, practice more, be a better shot. Profit. :)
 
There's nothing in WV that needs more than a 30-06 or 308 to be killed. Forget the magnum round, buy the sufficient cartridge, save money, practice more, be a better shot. Profit. :)

I live in WV, but I plan to head west for an elk hunt in 2018, before my 40th birthday (mid-life crisis I guess).

My situation is that I use copper bullets exclusively, and they need to be going fast to work. I agree with the research that someone posted earlier that says 2600 fps or more is good for bang flops and optimal copper bullet expansion. My personal range limit is 300 yards, and maintaining 2600 fps at 300 yards requires a magnum and relatively light for caliber bullets. I was considering a 270 Winchester, but now I'm leaning towards a WSM. The 270, 300, and 325 WSM can all maintain 2600 fps at 300 yards with lighter bullets (129, 150, and 160 respectively).
 
I live in WV, but I plan to head west for an elk hunt in 2018, before my 40th birthday (mid-life crisis I guess).

My situation is that I use copper bullets exclusively, and they need to be going fast to work. I agree with the research that someone posted earlier that says 2600 fps or more is good for bang flops and optimal copper bullet expansion. My personal range limit is 300 yards, and maintaining 2600 fps at 300 yards requires a magnum and relatively light for caliber bullets. I was considering a 270 Winchester, but now I'm leaning towards a WSM. The 270, 300, and 325 WSM can all maintain 2600 fps at 300 yards with lighter bullets (129, 150, and 160 respectively).


Personally I like heavy for caliber bullets for big game. Tissue destruction and penetration kill animals. But I have no experience with all copper bullets on big game. I do have some Barnes TSX 70gr bullets loaded up for my AR-15 if I ever get the chance to go hog hunting.

I'm sure a Barnes bullet out of a 300 WSM will kill your elk for you. The Barnes bullets are proven performers, no doubt.
 
We're getting a little off topic here but I think your numbers are way off. I'm not sure what your .260 Rem load looks like but I'm shooting a 250gr Barnes TTSX at 2,800 fps. I also handload for and shoot a 6.5 Creemoor and push a 140gr ELD at 2,800 fps which beats the factory load by a good margin. Even if I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're pushing a 143gr ELD-X at 2,800 fps, the 250gr TTSX has considerably more energy everywhere out to 600 yards. Now factor in that the ELD-X isn't a particularly tough bullet so if you were to pick a solid copper bullet such as the Barnes 127gr LRX it gets even worse for the 6.5 Creedmoor.

Here's what my 250gr .375 cal load looks like for energy out to 600 yards compared to a 143gr 6.5mm load (see below). Since you mention flight time, my bullet gets to 500 yards in 0.648 seconds whereas the 143gr takes 0.607 seconds which is a difference of 0.041 seconds so I'm not sure what your 1/4 second faster comment is based on.

So what are the details of your .260 Rem hunting load so that we can compare apples to apples? If you want to pick a legitimate argument in favor of the .260 Rem or 6.5 CM at long range then velocity might be the better point to make relating it to bullet expansion. With the bullet I'm shooting I probably need to limit shots to about 500 yards and ideally closer to 400 yards to keep above the 2,000 fps lower limit for decent bullet expansion. For the 127gr LRX the effective range might be limited to 550 yards or so. Bullet performance at 500 to 600 yards for any of the bullets discussed here is conjecture of course. Hornady shows a photo comparing expansion of the 143gr ELD-X at 1,800 fps and 2,600 fps and both look decent.

Range > .375 H&H > 6.5 CM
0 yards > 4351 ft-lb > 2489 ft-lb
50 yards > 4054 ft-lb > 2372 ft-lb
100 yards > 3773 ft-lb > 2260 ft-lb
150 yards > 3509 ft-lb > 2153 ft-lb
200 yards > 3259 ft-lb > 2050 ft-lb
250 yards > 3023 ft-lb > 1950 ft-lb
300 yards > 2801 ft-lb > 1854 ft-lb
350 yards > 2592 ft-lb > 1762 ft-lb
400 yards > 2396 ft-lb > 1674 ft-lb
450 yards > 2212 ft-lb > 1589 ft-lb
500 yards > 2039 ft-lb > 1508 ft-lb
550 yards > 1878 ft-lb > 1430 ft-lb
600 yards > 1726 ft-lb > 1355 ft-lb


Welp, I stand corrected...

I just ran your load parameters in my ballistic calculator, and it pretty closely matches what you posted above (actually, it looks even more in your favor since I'm using higher density altitude atmospherics out here in Colorado). Anyway, my knowledge of hunting loads for the .375 H&H is evidently outdated, and apparently there are some better loads available for the .375 H&H than I have seen previously. That 250 grain TTSX has pretty solid downrange performance, and doesn't drop off nearly as quickly as the other hunting loads I've looked at in the .375 H&H in the past (including loads that were used by my buddy in his .375 H&H). I do know there were some bullets for the .375 that pretty closely resembled the aerodynamic efficiency of a shotgun slug (or a brick), but that bullet you're using has a G1 B.C. of 0.424 according to my calculator, which is pretty damn good for that caliber!

Believe it or not, the comparison I mentioned above does stand true, but definitely not against the load you're using. As we know, aerodynamic projectiles make all of the difference downrange!

That aside, I still don't have any hesitation in using the .260 Remington on elk sized game out to 500 yards. At 2,200 fps and around 1,500 ft-lb of energy at that distance, I'm confident that the bullet will do its job if I put it where it's supposed to go (and putting that bullet where it is supposed to go at 500 yards isn't much of a problem at all -- that gun/cartridge combination excels at distance shooting). My personal large game limits with this caliber aren't set based on arrival velocity as much as arrival energy (the other side of the ballistics equation). I like to keep my elk loads in the 1,400-1,500 ft-lb of energy range on target, which falls in between 500-600 yards. I should add that I'm certainly not taking the .260 Rem out to hunt lions in Africa, but elk sure aren't lions!
 
Last Elk I took was a cow hunt in northern AZ, opening day 2 degrees F snowing, they came over a ridge about where we had hoped. Put 1 round into a cow 7mm rem mag, (I Know if I was using the -06 it would make a better story) she spun and went into a thicket, I was pretty sure I hit her so I had to let the rest of the herd continue on. Started walking towards her about 50 yds, she stepped out of the thicket, dropped to my ass and fired again, she went down. When we skinned her both rounds went in just behind the front shoulder about 6 inches from each other through the lungs good expansion, my loads were handloads with 175gr Nosler partition bullets. Fisrt shot was about 350 yds. But just to show, some game just doesn't go down easy.

Good eats though.
JD
 
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