How safe are 1911's to carry cocked and locked?

[unisonic12]

Again, I fear that most 1911 shooters do not have the technical knowledge to know if their gun is in "perfect working order".

Why? It ain't that hard. Just check the thumb and grip safety independently. Make sure the hammer positively locks into place when fully cocked and make sure it stops at half-cock with the grip safety released. Drop a pencil (eraser first) down the muzzle and dry fire it to make sure the firing pin shoots it up out of the barrel. Heck, I even learned how to detail strip my 1911s from tutorials available on-line.

 

[Calhoun321]

You just proved my point.

What angle are your sear hooks cut at? your sear nose? Are they in spec? Do you know how to check? Can you measure them? Would you know a problem if you saw it? Most would not.

 

[unisonic12]

Why do I even need to go to that level of detail? I can tell if my hammer is positively locking back by wiggling it from side to side, pulling up and pushing down on it, banging on it, etc. Either it works or it doesn't. If my hammer is falling off the sear, I know how to detail strip it and replace it. If the new sear needs any tuning, then that's what my local gun shop is for. Geez, ,man...you make it sound like you have to be a master craftsman gunsmith or something to operate a 1911.

 

[gc70]

GC, we're probably in pretty close agreement overall.

Agreed.

Again, I fear that most 1911 shooters do not have the technical knowledge to know if their gun is in "perfect working order".

Unfortunate, but true. The information about basic safety checks is readily available and the process is not difficult, but many 1911 owners don't take the time to check their guns. But that is not unique to 1911's; many owners of other types of guns also don't perform safety checks.

 

[Calhoun321]

I'm being a little "over the top" to make a point. Your gun can pass the basic external safety check even with damaged parts. Perhaps your sear has a chip and is only engaging the hammer hooks on 1 side. Maybe it was cut wrong at the factory or by a gunsmith (happens). It may pass your test, but is it still drop safe w/o a FP safety? It is certainly less safe by any measure.

I would never suggest detail strips and measurements after every use. But I would suggest a more detailed check of the lockwork once or twice a year on a series 70 carry gun. I doubt if more than 1% of shooters can or actually do, do this.

I personally love the 1911, but would only carry a series 80 colt. You get a safer gun with no real down side.

 

[Mello]

1. All guns are always loaded.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you wouldn't destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger unless your sights are on the target.
4. Be sure of your target and of what's beyond.

 

[unisonic12]

But I would suggest a more detailed check of the lockwork once or twice a year

And, I actually do this. That's why I wanted to learn how to detail strip it. I do this for all of my firearms because I don't want to be reliant on a gunsmith should any parts break. Here's my "real life" example. Many, many moons ago when I was young (and ignorant), the trigger return spring on my Glock 19 broke and the trigger wouldn't reset. Can you believe I paid a gunsmith 75 frickin' dollars to change out a spring that only cost a couple of dollars...on a Glock??? The simplest semi-auto to detail strip in the world? I didn't know any better at the time and soon after is when I started researching and saving any and all tutorials I could find for the guns I owned. The internet has made it much easier these days!

 

[gc70]

You get a safer gun with no real down side.

What is your trick to get those danged firing pin safety levers in place when reassembling a 1911?

 

[unisonic12]

Firing pin safety levers? It's a snap with my Kimber. It's just a single "lifter" piece that sits on the right of the sear. Just drops in place.

 

[mpmarty]

So, for all the years since 1911 us dumb Americans have been exposed to unsafe pistols. Boy! What a great opportunity for us to all band together and file a class action suit against John Moses Browning!

Get real here please; if you are uncomfortable with a C&L 1911 then by all means carry something else. Please don't try to muddy the waters for new users of this fine pistol by impugning its reliability and safety.

Nothing is foolproof for a dedicated fool.

 

[unisonic12]

Right on mpmarty! The Glock is FAR more "dangerous" than a properly working 1911. And that's with the essential design and not a malfunction. Now, I'm not going to argue whether external safeties are better or not...or how revolvers never had them, etc. The Glock will fire no matter what if you PULL the trigger, whereas the 1911 will not if BOTH the thumb and grip safeties are engaged. Many people have had NDs with Glocks because they tried to catch them when dropped. Many have had NDs with Glocks because a shirt or something got caught in the trigger guard when re-holstering. Many have had NDs with Glocks because the Glock requires pulling the trigger to field strip it...and they didn't properly clear it. I really can't recall seeing any 1911 stories about NDs because of these situations.

 

[Walkalong]

I personally love the 1911, but would only carry a series 80 colt. You get a safer gun with no real down side.

except for a unnecessary device that can fail to let the gun fire an a really inconvenient time.

Safety checking a 1911 is very easy, and instructions how to do so are available online.

This is another reason MIM parts are not liked by 1911 fans. They can fail catastrophically vs forged/machined parts. A properly made sear is not going to disintegrate. A finely tuned sear/hammer (which should not be used on a carry gun) may slip and let the hammer go to the "interceptor/safety" notch, but it won't go all to pieces.

 

[Guillermo]

this is all pretty theory. A well made gun is as safe as its owner.

Is it POSSIBLE that your 1911 can misfire...sure. It is absolutely true that a swimming pool is bigger if you pee in it.

Where the rubber meets the road, it is 99.99% about the handler.

Keep your finger out of the guard until you are ready to shoot. Keep other stuff out of the trigger guard by using a good holster made for that weapon.

Those 2 factors will stop virtually every unintended discharge.

 

[unisonic12]

except for a unnecessary device that can fail to let the gun fire an a really inconvenient time.

Agreed. That's why I put in a smooth series 70 firing pin in my Kimber. Completely bypasses the Schwartz safety and I can return it to stock configuration very quickly and easily.

 

[ngc2289]

Didn't the NYPD request Glock put manual safties on their guns? It seems that several accidental discharges occured when officers put there fingers on the trigger during stressful situations, discharging the firearm.

 

[1911shooter]

Hey lets not forget Jeff Copper and others had their grip safties pin down. the 1911 is one of the safest and best combat pistols ever built. this whole issue boils down to if you dont feel comfortable in carrying cocked and locked then dont carry a 1911. if you take the time to learn the 1911 and are willing to make a compitent attempt to master it then the 1911 is for you.

 

[brisendines]

I guess I'm just weird. I never thought twice about c&l 1911s, but holstering my glock scares the crap out of me some times. Leaving it by the bedstand is dangerous as well.... if I flail around trying to find it in the dark some night I may very well have an oopsie.

 

[Guillermo]

brisendines

I agree, you are just weird

The Glock will not shoot unless you holster your shirtail too and the mass "pulls" the trigger.

 

[brisendines]

Thats exactly what I'm worried about. I wear long shirts to cover it and when I tuck it in, I'm afraid I won't sweep the whole shirt and get some caught in the trigger guard.

 

[Guillermo]

being so concerned I would be surprised if it ever happened

 

[tipoc]

... I fear that most 1911 shooters do not have the technical knowledge to know if their gun is in "perfect working order".

This may be true but it is also besides the point. It is also true that most gun owners do not know if their guns are in "perfect working order" no matter what type gun they have.

With the 1911 the first signs of trouble usually appear at the range. A damaged sear normally first appears as a hammer that follows the slide down to the half cock position and requires the shooter to manually recock the gun before another shot can be fired. This is often the first sign that the gun is unsafe to carry and is due for a trip to the gun smith.

The average shooter of the 1911 does not need to know the proper sear angle to safely carry the gun. Nor for any other sidearm. Hundreds of thousands of servicemen have carried the 1911 in several wars and only a relative few knew the proper sear angle or how to get a better one or much else about them other than that they worked.

Either the series 80 safety or the Schwartz make a safe gun safer. But the gun is safe without them if properly handled.

tipoc

 

[redneckrepairs]

Nowadays manuals are written much more by lawyers than gunsmiths . If you dont think that " cocked and locked " is safe then ill respectfully suggest that a 1911 is not for you . In fact ill extend that and state that if you have reservations about carrying a round chambered in any auto then an auto is not a wise choice for you . A 1911 of any maker should be carried " cocked and locked " . A double action such as a sig or some other brands should be carried chambered and decocked ( CZ excepted , and then see 1911 imho lol ) . Glocks , XD , Kahr , ect are revolvers with slides in the sense they have NO active decocker or safety . All have safetys , but are passive , and if you pull the trigger thro intent or misfortune you WILL hear a loud noise , and notice a hole where likely there was not one before , kinda like a revolver lol . If they ever invent a truly safe pistol i for one wont own it , because i count on my firearms to be dangerous .

 

[rbernie]

I know tests have shown a muzzle drop onto a hard surface from around 10 feet is necessary for a AD.

I'd like a cite, please.

 

[CDH]

Glocks , XD , Kahr , ect are revolvers with slides in the sense they have NO active decocker or safety . All have safetys , but are passive , and if you pull the trigger thro intent or misfortune you WILL hear a loud noise , and notice a hole where likely there was not one before , kinda like a revolver lol.

I'll respectfully disagree with regard to the XD's for sure, because they add the grip safety similar to the 1911.
It's virtually impossible to fire an XD, no, make that just "impossible" to fire an XD accidentally. You may do it "unintentionally" by stupidly playing with it, but you can't fire it unless the grip safety is down AND you pull the trigger; a situation impossible to set up without properly and intentionally gripping the pistol and pulling the trigger at the same time.

That's the single most reason that I chose XD's (XD9SC and XD45/4") over any Glock.

 

[steve4102]

I have a Para Ord. 14-45. I carry it C&L. One reason, if I want to use the thumb safety the hammer must be back. If I close the hammer the thumb safety cannot be put back on.