How should I handle this problem with shipping ammunition via UPS?

Status
Not open for further replies.

DMK

Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2002
Messages
8,868
Location
Over the hills and far, far away
Recently, I sold some ammunition to a forum member, packed it up, labeled it appropriately, and took it to my local UPS customer counter.

Day #1: When the counter attendant saw the ORM-D on the box, she threw the wrench in the works and told me that they could not ship ammunition. Me: Please get your supervisor. I explained to them that I shipped ammo numerous time over that very counter including one shipment last week. I was talking to a brick wall. Forgetting about the toll free hazmat number, I left and emailed customer service. They responded promptly and courtiously with the email that I posted on this thread, basically stating that it was OK to ship ammunition as long as it was properly packaged and labeled according to federal regulations.

Day #2: The supervisor dismissed the email referring to a poster that they had on the wall. The poster listed hazardous materials, including ammunition. Granted, ammunition is considered hazardous materials, that is the reason for the proper labeling. The poster did not say anywhere that it was prohibited material. I referred to the toll free hazmat number on the poster, on the wall and on the email. The supervisor point blank refused to call it stating that she knew the rules and did not need to get verification. My blood started to boil at this point and I politely thanked her for her time and left deciding that losing my composure and arguing with an idiot was not going to be appropriate or productive. I should have called the hazmat people on my cell phone right there but unfortunately did not think of it. I called when I got home and by that time was sufficiently "cooled off". Of course, they agreed with me.

Day #3: I decided that this was getting unfair to the buyer so I took an extended lunch break and took the package in during the day shift this time instead of stopping on my way home from work. It was the day shift that accepted my ammunition last time. I told the counter attendant that I was having difficulty shipping this in the evening and she was very friendly and apologetic. She agreed with me but decided that she should call hazmat as CYA just in case something changed and she was not aware of it. I had no problem with that. The hazmat people told her it was OK and she took the package.

Now, I'm thinking that requiring a customer to make three different trips to ship a single package is unacceptable, especially considering that the evening people made no effort to verify my information or back up their's. If the evening supervisor called the toll free hazmat number on the first night, this whole thing could have been avoided.

I'm considering writing two official letters to physically deliver to the day shift supervisor, one complimentary concerning the employee who did help me, the other a letter of complaint against the evening supervisor.

How would you handle this?
 
I would do my best to get that ignorant supervisor fired. UPS would be well rid of her. Who knows what other stuff she is screwing up?
 
Write a letter of complaint to as high up in the UPS organization as you can. Lay out the facts, keep it professional and businesslike, and don't inject your political beliefs into it. It's not an RKBA issue, it's a case of a supervisor harming a customer by NOT complying with official policy.

Put heavy emphasis on your compliance with both the law and UPS policy.

Explain that the evening supervisor flatly refused to call the toll-free number. Stress that she wasn't interested in your compliance with either the law or UPS policy, she only wanted to turn you away.

Provide dates and times, and mention the increased cost to you of making multiple trips because a UPS supervisor chose not to comply with either the law or UPS policy.

cc: the local Better Business Bureau.

And, this is very important: name names.
 
I sent UPS an email about a delivery person that was giving me trouble and they responded and took care of the problem that same day. So I'd write to them. They take customer feedback seriously.
 
The reason that a lot of places won't take small arms ammunition for shipment is that most of the time the shipping individual has no idea what the Department of Transportation requirements are for proper packaging, classification, marking, and labeling. From seeing a lot of threads on this subject, I would say that many of these shipments are in violation of the regulation. You can't just throw the stuff in a box, write ORM-D on the outside and ship it.

Not that it is overly complicated and hard to comply with the regulations. For everyone's information, here are the applicable DOT regulation parts for shipping small arms ammunition as ORM-D.

Code of Federal Regulations, Title 49, Part 173

173.63 Packaging exceptions

(b) Cartridges, small arms, and cartridges power devices. (1) Cartridges, small arms and cartridges power devices (which are used to project fastening devices) which have been classed as a Division 1.4S explosive may be reclassed, offered for transportation, and transported as ORM-D material when packaged in accordance with paragraph (b)(2) of this section; such transportation is excepted from the requirements of subparts E (Labeling) and F (Placarding) of part 172 of this subchapter. Cartridges, small arms, and cartridges power devices that may be shipped as ORM-D material is limited to:

(i) Ammunition for rifle, pistol, or shotgun;
(ii) Ammunition with inert projectiles or blank ammunition;
(iii) Ammunition having no tear gas, incendiary, or detonating explosive projectiles;
(iv) Ammunition not exceeding 12.7 mm (50 caliber or 0.5 inch) for rifle or pistol, cartridges or 8 gauge for shotshells; and
(v) Cartridges power devices which are use to project fastening devices.

(2) Packaging for cartridges, small arms, and cartridges power devices as ORM-D material must be as follows:
(i) Ammunition must be packed in inside boxes, or in partitions which fit snugly in the outside packaging, or in metal clips;
(ii) Primers must be protected from accidental initiation;
(iii) Inside boxes, partitions or metal clips must be packed in securely-closed strong outside packagings;
(iv) Maximum gross weight is limited to 30 Kg (66 pounds) per package; and
(v) Cartridges, power devices which are used to project fastening devices and 22 caliber rim-fire cartridges may be packaged loose in strong outside packagings.

Part 172 (Marking)

172.316 Packagings containing material classed as ORM-D

(a) Each non-bulk packaging containing a material classed as ORM-D must be marked on at least one side or end with the ORM-D designation immediately following or below the proper shipping name of the material (Cartridges, Small Arms). The ORM designation must be placed within a rectangle that is approximately 6.3 mm (0.25 inches) larger on each side that the designation.

(b) The marking ORM-D is the certification by the person offering the packaging for transportation that the material is properly described, classed, packaged, marked and labeled (when appropriate) and in proper condition for transportation according to the applicable regulations of this subchapter.
 
It is worth making a stink over the customer service aspect. That supervisor's refusal to call their own 800-number is what was inexcusable, not his lack of knowledge. Who knows how many other shipments were delayed or negated because of this individual's attitude?
 
From seeing a lot of threads on this subject, I would say that many of these shipments are in violation of the regulation.
EOD Guy, you can't make that blanket statement. My packaging meets all those requirements and the UPS rep did not in any way verify that. She didn't ask how it was packaged, what caliber it was or even weigh it. She flatly refused it because it contained ammunition, not because of how it was packed/labeled.

Penforhire, you are exactly right. It's not the lack of knowedge that bothers me. I can't expect them to know all the regs, and was not upset with the counter attendant. She went and got her supervisor because she didn't know. However, the supervisor's refusal to call their own 800-number is what was inexcusable. Her mind was made up and was not going to even acknowedge that she might be mistaken.
 
As a FedEx Ground Package Handler, I can say for a fact that we do ship ammo on a regular basis. In fact, some of those ammo shipments y'all get are pretty derned heavy. Y'all need to start buying your ammo at gunshows and save my poor back! Or at least share.

All joking aside, I would definitly write the letters and explain to them what happened and your willingness to go the competition with all of your business if the problems of poor customer service aren't remedied. There is no excuse for them to refuse to do their jobs, especially when they have posters with the info numbers right in front of their face.

Frank
 
Just received a package containing a box of .303 Savage cartridges yesterday that my niece had shipped via UPS on Monday from Phoenix.

She didn't know the procedure, so took it to a gun shop. The people very kindly took care of it for her (I'm assuming money exchanged hands). Told her it should arrive on Thursday (today). Came a day ahead of time. Good on UPS (this time).
 
yes, you need three letters at least, one to the UPS brass. UPS LOVES their rule book and policies. They will not like them being ignored, and they don't like people turning away business with the possible exception of things that negatively impact the christmass onslaught of lightweight small volume items.

In general, this situation is an ideal one for the cell phone. Call the 800 number while you are there. Tell them you want to verify the rules. Tell them to tell the supervisor. If the supervisor doesn't want to listen, then call the customer service number and inform them of that right then and there.
 
DMK,

It appears that the issue in your case is not the packaging but the arrogant attitude of the UPS supervisor. The UPS HAZMAT people are usually pretty good in assisting you in complying with the regulatory requirements.

I have received a lot of ammunition through UPS that was shipped in violation of 49CFR, and that was from people who are supposed to be trained.
 
In fairness to the carriers, let me say that one FedEx person who was insisting on triplicate typewritten paperwork told me that it was Gummint Goons who made it so hard. They (FedEx) were being forced to apply the letter of the law (regs) or face sanctions of some unspecified sort.

Sound like the gummint you know and love in the post-9/11 world?

TC
TFL Survivor
 
In fairness to the carriers, let me say that one FedEx person who was insisting on triplicate typewritten paperwork told me that it was Gummint Goons who made it so hard. They (FedEx) were being forced to apply the letter of the law (regs) or face sanctions of some unspecified sort.

They were BS'ing you. The Department of Transportation doesn't care how shipping papers are prepared as long as they contain all the correct information. You can hand write the shipping paper on toilet paper in crayon as long as all the required information is there. There are dozens of formats for HAZMAT shipping papers around. FedEx may have a form they require you to use, but there is no government regulation requiring it to be typed.

International air shipments are another matter and require following ICAO (International Civil Air Organization) regulations.
 
I'm considering writing two official letters to physically deliver to the day shift supervisor, one complimentary concerning the employee who did help me, the other a letter of complaint against the evening supervisor.

That's a good plan; I'd suggest, however, that you write to the president of U.P.S. and send copies of your letter to the cretins involved, area supervisors, et cetera. Always start at the top with customer disservice problems.
 
In general, this situation is an ideal one for the cell phone. Call the 800 number while you are there. Tell them you want to verify the rules. Tell them to tell the supervisor. If the supervisor doesn't want to listen, then call the customer service number and inform them of that right then and there.
You are absolutely right Raz-0. I'm now sorry that didn't occur to me until after I'd left. My cell phone was on my belt the whole time.

On the other hand, her insolent attitude was most irritating. It probably was best that I bit my lip, stayed polite and left before I lost my temper.
 
A word of clarification please. You said, "UPS Customer Counter."

Is the Customer counter the one in a UPS distribution facility, OR

Is the customer counter at one of the store fronts.

One is a direct UPS employee, the other is a franchise holder. One cares what UPS policy is. The other calls his own shots where ever possible.
 
The UPS people in the brown uniforms (or name tags) have never given me a problem with shipping ammo or firearms as long as I did my part and was prepared to make the transaction before walking into their shipping office. But, when dealing with "Shipping Center Super Store' or "Mail Boxes Etc.." that are acting on the behalf of the vendor then lord only knows what kind of treatment you might get (once having been told that "the police will be called if you don't remove that firearm from this property") Still I try not to use UPS too often because of a package I received with a boot print across the fragile/breakable symbol.
 
A word of clarification please. You said, "UPS Customer Counter."

Is the Customer counter the one in a UPS distribution facility, OR

Is the customer counter at one of the store fronts.
I'm talking about a UPS owned facility with UPS, union employees.

Good point, some folks get those confused. Those private "pack and ship" UPS contract places cannot accept firearms and it may be possible that they can't take ammunition either.
 
Like a previous poster said:

>>>>Explain that the evening supervisor flatly refused to call the toll-free number. Stress that she wasn't interested in . . . UPS policy, she only wanted to turn you away.

In corporate shipping's eyes, the worst sin an employee can committ is to completely ignore policy. She didn't even care to call and ask. They go nuts over that. Mention other things in the letter to the extent you want, but this is the highlight. Make sure it stands out with its own paragraph, underline, bold, whatever works for you.

patent
 
Recently had a similar experience with Fed Ex. Counter person said I couldn't ship ammo unless I had taken a prerequisite "how to ship haz-mat items through the system" lecture. Regardless of the fact that I had called their Dangerous Goods line to confirm the correct labelling and packaging procedures.

SO, with ORM-D (Cartridges, Small Arms) labeled box in hand, I journey to the next "ships-R-us" , that ships through UPS. Counter guy lifts the box, says "this dosen't feel like a vacume cleaner" (since I'd used a hand vac box to ship the stuff) and that was that. All the labels in place, no fuss no muss. Or in other words, don't ask, don't tell.

If you've got the opportunity, go somewhere else.
S.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top