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I see several anti-Bush ppl here..

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A vote for a third party is not a wasted vote. It is one less vote Bush did not earn.

What is Bush doing to repair the damage Klinton did? Nothing! Sooner or later the Dems will pick up right where they left off. Doesn't matter to me one bit if it is sooner or later. Twiddling your thumbs for another 4 years is rediculous.
 
willp58 said:

A vote for Alfred A Newman or some other fringy is a wasted vote -- You might vote for Alfie to "feel good" but the reality is......Wasted vote.

John Quincy Adams said:

Always vote for a principle, though you vote alone, and you may cherish the sweet reflection that your vote is never lost.
 
Bush plays around with the AWB, while trampling rights with PA1 & 2.
If you must vote, vote third party.
Also, you could vote Dem to get it over with. Stop pretending we're 'free'.
Electoral College makes the real vote for president.
 
I agree that normally a vote from your absolute heart of hearts is the only conscionable way to go.

Times aren't normal, though, folks. We live in a polarized nation. We have close to a 50/50 electorate. A vote for your conscience is a vote removed from your favorite of the two electable parties.

Please read the voting records of the two parties on the gun issues. '68, '88, '94...there are very few Repubs that vote against us and very few Dems that vote with us. Right down the line. Look it up for yourself.

There are certain aspects of the GOP that I can't stand...but they recognize the need for the "teeth of democracy." That's the bunch that'll get my vote.
 
Absolutely not. I refuse to vote for Bush simply because somebody else might be "worse" on the gun issue. You can hold your nose and vote for him if you wish, but I'm going third party. Whichever Republican or Democrat stooge wins doesn't really make any difference, but I'll be able to live with myself by not having endorsed one of them.
 
I agree with Golgo, I will vote my concience. In addition is it really the worst thing if there is a Republican Congress and a Democratic President? I like the gridlock of having competing parties in power better than what I have seen from the all Republican power in Washington.
 
Conscience here. And I live in Florida, arguably the one state where every vote for the "lesser evil" really matters.

So there. :neener:
 
To be honest, Bush is gonna win by a landslide in my state, so I might vote for the Greens. I want em to get matching funds to pull votes from the Democrats.

So back atcha... :neener:
 
good point Jefmad- one party control is a disaster. Gop outspending Dems and prok galor for the boys while running up huge deficiets. The GOP has morphed into everything it once proclaimed to be about fiscally.
 
We knew he lost Florida, but we did nothing

Not true -- every independent count resulted in a narrow Bush win.

I am of the "hold my nose and vote Bush" camp. There is much I dislike about Bush and the Republicans, and I agree that there is only a thin difference between them and the Democrats -- BUT there is a difference.

I cannot vote Libertarian, as I do not support much of their platform, and I doubt that they will ever be viable.

We need to push the Republicans as hard as we can to move toward governing from constitutional principles -- but, with the best intentions possible, they cannot move far and remain electable.

As someone above said, we are a divided country -- about half of our voters vote for bread and circuses, and would welcome socialism in all of its glory.:banghead:

So any party that wants to return to constitutional principles must do so in VERY small steps, educating the electorate all the way, or they will simply be crushed by the Socialst/Democratic machine.
 
The GOP has morphed into everything it once proclaimed to be about fiscally.

That seems to be true, but it's the party of chioce if we want to work within the system to get back there. There are still plenty of effective die hard fiscal conservatives out there...and they're all have an (R) after their names.
 
Whichever Republican or Democrat stooge wins doesn't really make any difference, ... yada yada
The candidate is not the stooge. The only stooge is someone who actually believes that crap. Wake up! Unless you are joking, then please include a smiley face! :uhoh:
 
If it were going to be like a 2 million person synchronized swim, now would be a great time to send a message to the party. A SHORT TERM loss to the left would not be the end of the world to me. It’s the uncertainty in knowing whether or not 'we' could take it back 4 years down the road..... with a more committed right thinking leader. I mean a true fiscal conservative and constitutionalist.... Limited government type.... In know, a Libertarian in a Republican suite....


I’m up in the air still, which isn’t a bad place to be since there is almost a year left to decide.


Diesle
 
Ok Mike good idea --- What is this guy's name????? Remember, obviously he HAS to be a viable candidate..

<<<<I take a 3rd option, as would any rational person. Vote for the guy that will stick up for my rights.>>>>>
 
Derek Zeanah:

Conscience here. And I live in Florida, arguably the one state where every vote for the "lesser evil" really matters

I have you beat there. I lived in S.E. Connecticut the when our far-left gun grabbin Democrat Congressman Sam Gejdenson won our district by 5 votes over the pro RKBA Republican Ed Munster. Most gun owners stayed home of course since it was well known that Munster had no chance. :cuss:

The people awoke the next time around and elected the strong RKBA Republican Robert Simmons.
 
A SHORT TERM loss to the left would not be the end of the world to me.

The AWB/mag-ban was enacted 2 years into Klinton's first term, right?

As another perspective, the demos didn't get universal healthcare through, but DID find time and votes to restrict RKBA.
 
As another perspective, the demos didn't get universal healthcare through, but DID find time and votes to restrict RKBA.

To set the record straight, the Clinton admin failed to get reform on medical care because Bill gave it to Hillary who promptly pissed off the entire congress. They stuffed it up her rear to send that administration a message. IMO, the AWB ban went through because the dems were behind it but also because there were plenty of repubs who also were and they saw this as a way to get it done and be able to blame it on Clinton.

As you can see in Bush's actions, a lot of repubs are definitely in favor of the AWB, they are just stepping lightly and double talking it because they are afraid of pissing off the NRA.
 
Willp58, I'm with Thumper on this one....

"there are very few Repubs that vote against us and very few Dems that vote with us. Right down the line. Look it up for yourself."
************************************************************

Dubya is the most pro-gun of the electable candidates.:(

Lieberman is of the evil 'ban-the-guns' party:eek:

Bush will get my vote in Florida...again:D
 
Have we all gotten gullible and started believing politicians?
We believe Bush's words as gospel truth that he will sign an AWB if it comes to his desk? Some of us have even extended this belief that he would sign any AWB bill regardless of its content?

We start believing that Howard Dean or any of the other clowns running for the Democrat nomination has no agenda whatsoever or probably will never flip to the darkside when it comes to banning guns? Remember our old friend Al Gore had the same position before he became VPOTUS.
 
As you can see in Bush's actions, a lot of repubs are definitely in favor of the AWB, they are just stepping lightly and double talking it because they are afraid of pissing off the NRA. -Bountyhunter


I think this answers the whole AWB/Bush/congress thing in a nutshell. It sounded more like a line drawn in the sand for to me than a promise when the President said he would sign an AWB into law if it reaches his desk. If such a bill reaches his desk, the Republic control over congress, as weak as it is can kiss its butt g'bye. He does not want the bill to reach his desk- especially before election, it would inflame too many people no matter which action he took. If the Republicans in the house and senate are going to do political horse trading and pass an AWB bill, Bush is going to make sure that they pay dearly for it.
After Bush is reelected to office, he will not sign such a bill- count on it.
 
We believe Bush's words as gospel truth that he will sign an AWB if it comes to his desk?

True, if the last 3 years have shown anything, it's that we can't trust one damn word bush says.

People have to stop voting on one issue.

And if you want to vote only on guns, wait untill they confiscate your guns after the next terrorist attack and tell you it's for your own safety. I guess we deserve it for not firing every lawmaker, regardless of party, who voted for the patriot act.

Having one party controlling the house, senate and presidency is dangerous. Washington works better when nothing gets done. The less they can agree on, the less rights get infringed.
 
Suppose the president says he'll sign a bill re-instating slavery if comngress can repeal the 13th amendment & then pass it.
Now supposse that he immedietely went behind the scenes to quietly discourage congress from taking any action.

Would he be a good president or a bad one?

That's for y'all to decide. Personally I don't care for people who don't respect thier word, nor do I care for people who attempt to violate my Rights, whether it was to fufill an oath or for any other reason.

Speaking of oaths, didn't Bush (as every president before him) swear an oath to uphold & defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign & domestic?

But let me stress something else; Bush is responsible for the actions of his AG. If Bush disapproves of Ashcroft's actions then Bush can either order him to remedy the situation or replace him. The buck stops with Bush.

With that in mind, here's why Bush wouldn't get my vote even if he had remained silent on the AWB;

Ashcrogt has stated that the 2nd amendment guarantees an individual Right to Arms, subject to reasonable government restriction. Under that policy he's been pursuing several Bush approved programs: Project Exile/Safestreets/Neighborhoods. These are designed to vigorously enforce all federal firearms laws.

Lest ye forget, ALL federal firearms laws are unconstitutional. whether it be for a felon possessing a weapon, or a man making a silencer so he won't go deaf from target practice, a person who puts a post-ban "assault weapon" in a pre-ban folding stock, or the guy busted for carrying a .44 in bear country that wanders inadvertently into a national park.

So regardless of the justifications for Bush supporting the renewal of the AWB, Bush is no friend to the people as evidenced by his vigorous efforts to persecute those who exercise their Rights.

Another thing - after September the 11th what hapened? People could no longer carry finger nail clippers on planes. Someone care to point out where the 2nd amendment has an exception for those traveling in fedewrally regulated conveyences? Fact is if Bush hadn't stood idly by & allowed an unconstitutional law disarm airline passengers, there's a good chance two buildings in NYC would still be there, along with 3,000 people.

So Bush has enforced laws that infringe upon our Rights, even after said victim disarmament allowed a handful of murderers with knives to take out 2 buildings & 3,000 people.

& Bush is a gun owners friend????

BTW, Bush signed a CCW bill into law in Texas. & the point? How is that a positive for gun owners? The CCW bill requires a Texan to grovel & beg the state, after paying a hefty fee, in order to exercise a natural, inherent Right that's guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution. Well, that's not completely true. A Right is something that is exercised without having to grovel for permission. What Bush did is turn what should have been respected as a Right into a privilege that the poorest Texans could not afford.

Not to mention Bush asked SCOTUS to not hear two 2nd amendment court cases; one was Haney, which involved a challenge to the NFA of '34, the other was Emerson, which challenged the Lautenburg amendment.

If Bush turned around & withdrew his support of the AWB, stopped enforcing all federal gun laws, put as much pressure as possible on congress &/or the courts to repeal all federal gun control laws, & urged states to pass Vermont based carry laws, then he'd be a friend of the gun owners of this country.

As it stands now Bush is a friend of those who want "reasonable restrictions" on firearms.

As to the talk of an electable candidate - Will it really matter when your Rights are negated if it's done by someone who professes you don't have any, or if it's done by someone who claims you have them, but they're subject to the government's whims? I see no difference between the two.
Neither do I see that voting for someone who has a chance at winning is the proper way to go about things.

We've been misled that one of two parties will win for a long time. It's because of that we're in the situation we are now. We can either start throwing our weight behind candidates who we would be ashamed of if they did win, or we could try to tell our grandchildren that we voted for the lesser of two evils.

The only way to effectively change things is to throw as much voter weight as possible behind a third party. For the sake of discussion let's say the Libertarian Party (although the Constitution Party looks like they have some good ideas as well). we all vote for the Libertarians. two things will happen; Republicans may lose as most Libertarain votes will be disgruntled republicans. The other thing is that the Republican Party might understand the message; sell us out we'll boot you to the curb.

In the short term (4-12 years) this will cause Democrats to win office. In the long term it will steer the Republican Party back towards the right, or it will replace the Republican Party with the Libertarian Party as the other viable choice.

I guess what you should ask yourself is are you willing to make a short term sacrifice for a long term goal, or are you willing to give up the long term goal for some short term comfort?

But let me be clear on this: the AWB has enough votes in the House & Senate to pass. The only reason it hasn't has been because it hasn't came up for a vote. DeLay swears this won't happen (then again he said there wasn't enough votes), but Hastert is the Speaker of the House & he decides what gets voted on & what doesn't.Hastert has said it's still possible that the AWB renewal could come up for a vote.

So don't think we're out of the woods on this yet. & don't think Bush will not actively push it. If he's enforcing it now & promises to sign it later, damn skippy he'll use his political push to renew as a bargaining chip for something he wants.

One last thing, the AWB passed because the Repubs, at the direction of the NRA, let is pass so they could move on & pass the Brady Bill, which both the NRA & the republicans wanted to pass.

So don't think that Bush is an exception. A lot of Republicans support gun control, they're just better about the PR than the Democrats are. & don't be fooled into thinking that it's either Bush or a Democrat to be named later. That's looking at the short term (the presidency) & not looking at the long term (forcing the Republican Party to change or be swept aside).
 
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