I'm not so sure about the .45 ACP anymore

[Min]

I used to think the .45 ACP was the end all caliber for self defense, but lately I've been looking at the 9mm again. Ballistically, the 9mm +P loads are not that much weaker than the .45 std loads, it just has a smaller diameter.

Between my three favorite semi-auto calibers: 10 mm, 9 mm, and .45 ACP, I'll lean toward the 10 mm of course, but as of now the 9 mm is moving up to second place.

Anyone else feel the .45 is slow, and rather anemic compared to other calibers - 10mm, 9mm, .357 Sig. (I don't include the .40 S&W because personally, I don't like it).

 

[Rob96]

A lot of people can do more with les, so to speak. As most wold agree, all of the rounds are within very few percentage points when comparing quality defensive ammunition.

 

[pogo2]

Boy, are you swimming against the current.

 

[Al Thompson]

IMHO, there's not really much difference with your choices with the exception (maybe) of the .357 sig or 10mm. I haven't killed anything with one of those, so have no experiance there.

Testing in varius animals suggests to me that a good JHP works well - but it's a handgun, not a rifle. I think that handguns are very similar in effects to an arrow. The bullet tends to cut things and, absent a CNS hit, they bleed out.

Over the years I've had several non-hunting friends shoot animate targets and come away distressed at the lack of damage. Flesh isn't waterjugs or mud or gelatin.

Hardball is especially poor - but usually drills a hole through what ever you shoot with it. That''s not always a bad thing, but even .45 ball tends to give you a bruised spot the size of a dime with a cut in the middle. Give me a good JHP anyday - at least I get cookie cutting even if it dosen't open up.

HTH

 

[Ian11]

Most 9mm defense loads that tend to be as effective as the .45 are usually +P or +P+. While many effective loads in .45 can be readily found as standard pressure cartridges. That means I can practice with similar practice loads and not be "surprised" when I shoot defense loads.

Although these days I primarily rely on a Glock 21 loaded with 230 grain Remington GS I'd feel just as well protected with my SIG P226 9mm loaded with Winchester Ranger 147 grain (standard pressure). Again, shot placement. Shot placement.

 

[CWL]

It's not the equiptment, it's the operator.

ALL handgun rounds underperform. 80% of ALL handgun wounds are survivable.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.

(200th post. w00t!)

 

[Min]

If shot placement is so tantamount, then my conclusion is I would rather carry a 9mm cal gun with +P loads. One 9mm placed well should do the trick.

I wonder if I will have the presence of mind during a time when I will actually need to pull the trigger to save my life, to be able to place the shot where I need to.

 

[CWL]

Min,

If that last comment were true, then you dont need a gun at all, since the bullet doesn't matter anyways.

You seem to lack that "mental edge" or willingness to fight, survive and win a battle. This is usually the only true edge one has over another when in grave conflict.

You can solve this with training. Get your body to respond automatically without having to think about where to place the shot. This comes from thousands & thousands of rounds of bullets downrange -and I seriously advise you to spend $$ on professional training. This is more valuable than caliber of bullet.

 

[DeltaElite]

10mm and 45acp, everything else is just a compromise.

It is truly shot placement, but I like bigger holes in handgun calibers.

 

[Graystar]

One thing is for sure....the great performance of the .45 in the street. You can't argue with success.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

While shot placement is no doubt tantamount, the fact of the matter for most shootings is that people often are unable to have the shots land on the places intended. It may not that they aimed wrong or jerked the trigger, but that some other facet affected where the shot landed such as a heavy cross wind, a sudden movement by the intended target just as the trigger is pulled, etc. Of course, many simply are unable to put shots specifically where needed under stress. As a result, people learn to shoot COM (center of mass) such that even if the shot does not hit just where intended, it has the greatest likelihood of still hitting the intended target. In other words, it gives you the most room for error while still managing a hit.

Given that the shots often don't land where intended or hoped, I think it is important to go with a caliber and load that will create a goodly amount of damage anyway. In that case, the larger calibers (.45 acp and 10 mm) would tend to have the advantage and make bigger holes and hopefully tear up more on the inside. Even if you shoot a 9 mm hollowpoint that does expand, it still isn't going to expand much more than a ball .45 round.

Everyone is right in that the differences are not that great between the calibers, at least on a general level. That said, I am happier with a caliber that is more likely to have better results, even if the likelihood is only 2-5% greater over another caliber. It is an odds thing, kind of like the House of a gambling casino having slightly better odds of better their customers and so they continually turn profits even though some of the gamblers are about to beat the house significantly, but those are few.

 

[Hackworth92FS]

Funny. I find it funny that we debate how much bulets actually hurt. The best statement I've ever heard deals with shot placement. If me and someone else were to get in a gunfight, lets imagine this situation. My enemy in the gunfight hits me in the leg with his super load .45. I hit the enemy in the heart with my Walmart brand standard 9mm load. I think the only resolution to such a gun battle is this.....I limp away from my enemy's dead body. Shot placement...Shot placement. The reason to pratice shooting is not just to hit hwta you aim at, but also to be calm and consistent in regards to your shots. All the gunfights in regards to cops and badguys usually end up with empty magizines on both sides. Pratice and imagine your shooting at a person or animal that has reactions. This simple technique will help anyone. Paper targets are meant to be cut, not to move and react. Bullets will hurt and kill in many cases, regardless of caliber.

 

[sm]

I subscribe to shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.

Use Enough Gun

Be 'first with the most"

Platform, caliber, gun fit, allowing quick accurate hits, for individual .

Survival is the objective, nobody will remember the details, just that you did or didn't survive.

 

[mpthole]

If y'all want to know about shot placement, read this thread and practice your failure drills. Look for posts by "RoadRep". His first one is about 7 down from the start. Two to the body - One to the head.

 

[CWL]

Failure drills, yep.

Guys with holes in their hearts don't necessarily go down immediately. Lots of instances where BGs hit in the heart are found dead 100 yards away.

Recent event in Richmond, CA where LEOs were shooting it out with a BG up flight of stairs, he walked down said stairs shooting at cops the whole time. The cop at the bottom would shoot two COM, duck, shoot two COM , duck and repeat. He walked right by this cop and out into street where he was finally dropped by load of 12ga 00 buck. They later found out that he had taken 6 shots of .45ACP into the heart area and yet he was still able to walk & fire his weapon.

No guarantees in life.

 

[Ian11]

Hackworth92FS,

But.....if the guy with the .45 super load hits an artery in the leg I doubt the ambulance would arrive in time. Even a leg hit can kill fairly quickly.

CWL,

That is a scary story.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Ian11 makes a good point, Hackworth92FS. So you stopped your guy quick with a shot to the heart. Congratulations. Too bad that .45 Super round has destroyed a chunk of your femoral artery. Technically, you won, but in the big picture, the best you did was a draw because neither of you survived and in my book, that would count as a loss. If you don't live long enough to be able to tell your grandkids about your glory days of the fight, then things really didn't work out all that well.

Another way I like to look at the situation on gun calibers is to consider what calibers I would prefer my enemy to have should I end up in a fight. By and large, the smaller my enemy's caliber, the happier I am. As the caliber shrinks, his chances for being able to stop me or stop me quickly diminish.

 

[agtman]

"Given that the shots often don't land where intended or hoped ..., the larger calibers (.45 acp and 10 mm) would tend to have the advantage and make bigger holes and hopefully tear up more on the inside."


Bingo.

People repeat "shot placement, shot placement" like it's some sort of magical incantation that will somehow compensate for the historically iffy "stopping power" of lesser calibers, most notably the .355 caliber (9mm).

Yeah, in a perfect world with perfect shot placement you really wouldn't need anything more than a .22 long rifle for defensive use against humans where a handgun is involved.

But - except in a very small percentage of actual shootings - where that first bullet hits is usually anything but ideal (i.e., CNS hits or headshots).

Hence, the larger, heavier and/or more penetrating calibers (.40S&W/45acp/10mm) will help overcome the variable element of "shooter error" if shot placement ain't exactly perfect. These calibers create a larger wound channel and/or penetrate more deeply, thereby increasing the likelihood of damaging vital organs and hastening incapacitation.

As for the three larger calibers - .40/45/10mm - the 10mm is simply the most versatile, capable of doing everything the other two can do and more, although I very much respect the .45acp and would carry it again without hesitation if my 10mm were unavailable.

 

[Blueduck]

I find it funny that we debate how much bulets actually hurt.

Playing into that one..

One of my sisters friends was in a liquer store many years ago. Bad guy came in fired one shot and took her hostage, she jumped out of his car on the freeway and got away. Only when the police were interviewing her 20 minutes later did anyone (including herself) realize that the shot fired from the 357 magnum (unknown load) had went through her shoulder This was an 18 year old slightly built girl, not drunk or on drugs. 15 years later the man who did it was recently executed for a murder he commited later that night. She is STILL having surgeries to repair the damage done by that round.

I also recall a video of a man shot centermass with a 45 acp by a tropper. After being shot the man was standing there telling the trooper "Go ahead shoot me again &#(@$!"

From those two incidents sounds like we need to look into big and fast or small and slow. Hey lots of stopping power theories are based on less data than that

 

[Handy]

I don't think the .45 is anemic, but it isn't the magnum some people like to talk about it as. It's slow and heavy.

It seems to me that if you really want a heavy hitter because you don't trust more standard defence rounds, you should be carrying 10mm. It's got weight and velocity.

I think 9 is fine. Transitioning from practice loads to +P is not really a problem-the gun acts the same, just recoils a little more. It's nice to have one gun that can shoot a really heavy load yet be able to practice at $5 a box.

Practice makes perfect.


I'll take the artery over the heart shot, thank you. At least a surgeon has a good chance of repairing that.

 

[cratz2]

As much as I admire and respect the 45ACP, esp in the 1911 platform, I would feel completely safe defending my life with a 9mm, 40S&W, 357 SIG, 10mm, 357 Magnum, 38 Special +P when loaded with good HP ammo.

Having said that, I think I would personally stop short of calling the 45ACP loadings such as Gold Dots, Golden Sabers or Rangers 'rather anemic.'

 

[DonGlock26]

I know of a case where a .45 silvertip failed to penetrate a skull at close range(same round didn't go very far through a cabinet after an A.D.) . I've seen the 9mm FMJ do the opposite with excellent results. Shot placement is key and I've read where Israeli Special forces go right for the head in CQB. I've read the gun scribes say you can't go after the head, but the heart isn't bigger than the head. People can survive headwounds, but they often don't stay in the fight. I trust my 9mm,.40,.45 to do a good job if I respect their limitations.

 

[10-Ring]

Really simple. It comes down to what you feel most comfortable using especially when you consider the purpose behind using the calibers you've chosen.
Really, you are well served in the calibers you've chosen for self defense us.

 

[ojibweindian]

Regardless of caliber, shoot them till they stop, or you run out of bullets. Doing anything less is self-defeatism.