A better cartridge than the .45 ACP

[Min]

I thought the .45 ACP was the end-all be-all of handgun cartridges, but lately I've been thinking about the 10 mm round.

For self-defense against anything - man, animal, etc. I think I found my cartridge. Granted there are not a lot of guns out there chambered for it now, ESP. in the compact size except for the Glock 29.

Compared to the 10mm, even the venerable .45 ACP seems anemic, or at least sluggish.

Would you all want more guns in 10mm? Would you carry it more if there are more choices?

 

[dev_null]

I'm curious about the new .450 that Bond is coming out with: "...a 100-gr., .45 cal. frangible bullet at 2300 f.p.s. and a purpose-built pistol from which to fire it. The cartridge generates some 1,174 ft.-lbs of energy, outpacing the .44 Mag in that regard. Due to the lightweight bullet, felt recoil is claimed to be more than manageable."

- American Rifleman, February 2003, p. 49

-0-

 

[Smoke]

The 10mm was supposed to be the end all for handguns, bigger than 9mm as potent as 45acp, and replacing .40cal.

Instead it disappointed rather than impressed. I don't see it replacing either .40 or .45. I would take it over 9mm, though.

It is a good round, its just not significantly better than either of the others.

You can go read the debates on other threads over which round is better and just insert 10mm randomly. Its all arguable.

 

[Min]

Smoke, how did the 10mm disappoint? You can't make statements like that without supporting evidence. Frustrating.

The .450 sounds interesting. I like the stats you quoted. I suppose it is meant to only be frangible, and not solid ball like the others. I would wait for more manufacturers to make it, and more guns to be made for it, though.

 

[denfoote]

What killed it WAS it's power!! After the FBI adapted it, the female agents complained that they didn't like the recoil. The FBI responded with the "10mm lite" which had the same balistics as the .40S&W. Smith and Wesson then came out with the round that bears their name and offered it in a 9mm size package. The 10mm was delt an almost fatal blow!! It still lingers on in the hands of very vocal users like several of us here on THR.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Caliber Wars-

May I suggest interested parties peruse the pages at www.ammolab.com
And especially the results of frangible $2.00 per round ammo.

 

[DQed]

The .40 Short/Weak is certainly no improvement on the .45ACP. (IMO)
I've got a 9X23 that I'm learning about and it's certainly different. I haven't shot it enough to claim it's better but it IS flatter shooting and more powerful than the .45. However the .45 has plenty of documentation to it's effectiveness.

 

[Frohickey]

45Super

If only Ace Custom Guns were to release its interest in the cartridge, it would catch on faster.

Manufacturers can make 45Super pistols by substituting for a heavier spring, and heavier slide to alleviate slide battering. Then, you can shoot both 45ACP and 45Super through it.

 

[Beer for my Horses]

Debates like this always seem to omit any discussion of what should be a shooter's first priority: accuracy and speed back on target. On paper, the 10mm is a dream of high velocity and energy. In the hands of mere mortals, full power 10mm loads are more than most can shoot acceptably. Noone can claim to shoot full power 10mm as accurately and quickly as they can the same gun in 9mm. 10mm is a better field gun, imo, than a carry gun.

 

[Onslaught]

The 10mm was supposed to be the end all for handguns, bigger than 9mm as potent as 45acp, and replacing .40cal

The 10mm gave BIRTH to the .40!

It is a good round, its just not significantly better than either of the others.

again...
I'm not sure Smoke, if you've got any experience at all with the 10mm, or if you're just typing the same old tired stuff we all do when people talk about the 9mm/.40/.45, and just inserting 10mm instead, because I've NEVER read a debate on any Forum where ANYONE who knows what they're talking about argued that the 10mm wasn't MORE POWERFUL than the other 3.

If you actually look at the ballistics (a good place for that is the 10ring on Glocktalk) it's not hard to see that the 10mm, in it's true form, is "more" than the others.

Winchester Silvertips
caliber - grain - velocity - energy
.40 - 155 - 1205 - 500
.45 - 185 - 1000 - 411
10 - 175 - 1290 - 649

And in case you're wondering, No, I currently do NOT own any 10mm's. I did have a G29, but gave up on Gaston entirely since the G-grip and I don't like each other.

Before I bought the 29, I did my homework, and found that, ballistically, nothing else in off-the-shelf semi-auto ammo could touch the 10mm. ("off-the-shelf" excludes the .400 Corbons, .45 Super, etc...).

As for the "big guns", the 10mm's performance falls short of the .44 magnum, is very similar to all but the heaviest loads in .41 magnum, and completely surpasses the .357 magnum.
"not significantly better than the others"

I'd take a 10mm over a .45 any day of the week... but HK doesn't make a USP10, so I'll be keeping my USP45.

 

[tlhelmer]

Yes and Yes!

 

[pogo2]

Is bigger always better?

Onslaught makes a good point that the ballistics of the 10mm look more imposing than comparable .45 or .40 when he shows the numbers for Winchester Silvertips in the 3 calibers. The 649 ft-lbs of energy for the 10mm is about 25% higher than the typical 500 ft-lbs from the hottest loads of the other 2.

What is puzzling, however, is that the Marshall one shot stop numbers for the 10mm Silvertip are only about 92%
Marshal OSS figures
When you look at Marshall's numbers for the best .40 and .45 loadings, they tend to be in the 91% to 95% range, or about the same as the 10mm Silvertip. I know Marshall is controversial, but the conclusion here would be that all three calibers perform about the same in "street stopping". So the extra energy of the 10mm is not translating into effect on the human target. One wonders why.

A similar effect can be seen with .44 magnum. The Federal Hydrashok 240 grain ammo has a velocity of 1180 fps and energy of 743 ft-lbs, yet a OSS down in the 86% range. So I wonder if there is some sort of "diminishing returns" working here, in which ammo energy beyond a certain level (500 ft-lbs) doesn't improve stopping power, but actually degrades it? Are the bullets passing through the target and not delivering all that energy? Or is the accuracy of the shooter negatively affected by the big recoil he anticipates? I don't know, but I wonder if bigger is always better for self defense against humans?

 

[DeltaElite]

Well Marshall data is not credible, nor is Sanow or Ayoobs statistics. In fact there has yet to be a credible study done on the effectiveness of handgun projectiles on humans.

I will put 155gr Gold Dots at 1350 out of a 10mm up against any defesive load made.
I prefer my defensive guns to be 10mm, followed by 45acp.
For my job, penetration of auto bodies is sometimes needed and the 10mm is better at that than any other autoloading cartridge.
FWIW, I am currently carrying a 9mm and soon will have a 40sw Glock. Ohhhhhhhhhh, the humanity.

In revolvers, I would choose 41 Magnum, since I feel it is the best police revolver cartridge ever. If not that then 45 Long Colt or 44 Magnum in lower end loads.

I do believe that bigger is better, to an extent.
YMMV

 

[New_comer]

The way I see it, the 10mm is an excellent hunting round in an auto pistol format for small to medium sized game...

Enough to satisfy the cravings of most power-inclined shooters.

But in an SD scenario, the shooter-friendly rounds in 9mm, 40SW and 45ACP take the front seat...

Maybe that's the reason why the latter rounds are more popular. The ultimate determnant of success is, after all, customer patronage.

 

[Min]

The 10mm would be good for going through barriers. In military/police scenarios, people would be shooting from behind cover. The 10mm is more likely to punch through that cover and other semi-auto handgun rounds.

 

[cratz2]

The 10mm was supposed to be the end all for handguns, bigger than 9mm as potent as 45acp, and replacing .40cal.

I don't mean to flame, but did you read this somewhere from a non-credible source or did you just make it up? Where did you come up with the 10mm replacing the 40S&W? The 40 was a reduced case length of the so-called FBI Lite Load 10.

I'm not a fan of the 10 or an opponent. I'd like to get one someday but I do get rather tired of those with obviously no or little experience with it knocking the round. It may be more than you need, but there's no since in belittling the 44 Magnum just because the 357 Magnum fills your needs.

It's an option! :banghead:

 

[cratz2]

Ooh... And I don't think it was just females complaining about the recoil. I've been shooting my entire adult life, mostly 1911s in 45 and I must admit that the 10s that I've shot (Glock 20, S&W 1006 and 610) I cannot shoot as effectively as a 357 Magnum or a 45 1911. I found them managable, the light Glock probably being the easiest for me to shoot.

Guess I need a Delta Elite.

 

[DeltaElite]

Recoil management is more psychological than physical, IMHO.
I know some pretty big guys who are total wimps when using firearms and I have a 5'2" lady friend who shoots Kimbers in 45.

We as a people tend to convince ourselves that we can or can't shoot a particular round. I can shoot anything I put my mind to.

 

[Nightcrawler]

Oh hell. Now you guys are making me want a 10mm too. I can't have BOTH a 10mm AND a .45! How am I going to be ridiculously loyal to one cartridge if I have more than one or two?

 

[Min]

Be ridiculously loyal to the 10mm. It needs it.

 

[BigG]

10mm is a niche ctg, like Denfoote said. Despite the great theoretical appeal, very few actually like to shoot it.

Paper bullistics, while useful as a rough guestimate, have very little correlation to the actual differences between cartridges. Some smaller/slower loads have better terminal performance than bigger/faster ones in actual results. Go figger.

 

[Frohickey]

I think a pistol can be converted from a 45ACP to a 10mm with a barrel swap, and maybe a magazine swap.

 

[Jim Watson]

Jeff Cooper said he considered 10mm to have an improvement in performance over .45 at 75 yards and farther. I am not a 75 yard sidearm shooter so the difference is academic to me. Maybe it isn't to you.

 

[CZF]

Most people who trash the 10mm have never fired or owned one.
Tales of horrible recoil and lack of ammo/components..i missed
out on a great cartridge for many a year.

It is the "DO ALL' round for me. shoots flat, hits hard. AS
powerful for my needs as my Magnums. My 10 Holds TEN potent
rounds with a speedy reload..all in a package not much
larger than my CZ75s.

Just wish CZ offered a compact 97B in 10mm. That will never be,
so it's the Witness TEN MM for me

 

[Nightcrawler]

How strong and well-made is the Witness 10mm? Will it hold up? The only other real option is the Glock 20, and that doesn't fit my hand at all. 'Sides, I'm already really familliar with the controls on a CZ clone, since I own a CZ-97B...