I'm not so sure about the .45 ACP anymore

[cratz2]

If I ever need to use a handgun to defend myself or a loved one, if I get the perpetrator to stop doing what made me decided to shop them, I've succeeded. I would tend to think a double tap to the center of mass or slightly above the center of mass would get them to at least slow down. If they slowed down and I felt another shot was required, a round into the ocular/nasal cavity would be my primary choice, if possible.

All this is assuming I am able to keep my wits about me and shoot where I intended to shoot. I'm pretty level-headed but yo'll never know until you really find out.

 

[shepsan]

My opinion

This is a very interesting thread. If I may, I would like to offer my subjective opinion.

The handgun I carry is a .45 caliber 1911 semiautomatic pistol loaded with 230-grain ammunition. I have chosen this weapon to use to defend against an unexpected attacker whose aggression is life threatening. If the threat is distant, I will run from it, making the type and caliber of the handgun I carry unimportant. However, if the attacker is in close proximity to me, then many factors come into play.

Experience has shown me that I cannot shoot well with many types of revolvers or pistols. Some do not fit my hand comfortably. Others, when fired tend to cut and hurt the web of my hand between my right thumb and index finger. Still others are too light or in some cases, simply too heavy for me to properly control. There are also handguns whose balance impedes my quickly realigning target after recoil.

Therefore, the first factor of the equation determining my choice of handgun for defensive purposes is that the gun fit my hand well and that it has a good relationship between its weight and balance.

The second part of the equation is that of training. It is irrelevant if the gun fits my hand well and has a good balance if I cannot constantly place hits where I aim. My remedy for this is to practice technique and marksmanship on a frequent basis. It is through frequent practice that I hope to develop conditioned responses that will automatically come into play when aggressor confronts me. Of importance is that I develop good and not bad habits in my practice.

The third consideration is the matter of striking or if you will, stopping power of the ammunition I use. I have read many articles about the stopping power of various calibers and weights of bullets. However, reading statistics about penetration in gelatin and such has never really made a vivid impression on me. It was not until I participated in a defensive pistol class that I was able to form an opinion about stopping power of a specific caliber of weapon and ammunition.

There were fourteen shooters in my class. Some of the participants carried .380 cal, .38 cal, 9mm and .40 .cal handguns. I used a .45 cal 1911 and alternated magazines with Sellier & Bellot 230 grain FMJ rounds and Federal Hydra-shok 230 grain JHP rounds.

During one drill, three metal targets were spaced on the same horizontal line three feet apart. The center target was 10 yards from our firing position. Whereas a single shot fired from my 1911 (using either of my types of ammo) brought down each target when I hit centermass, it took multiply taps from those using .40 caliber to level the metal targets. It took even more rounds from those shooting smaller caliber handguns to bring down the individual metal targets.

This class dismissed any doubts I might have had about what gun to carry or about the caliber of ammunition necessary to stop an aggressor. I recognize that a bullet striking a metal target is not the same as a bullet striking flesh and bone. However, I do have an observation about my shooting with .45 caliber ammunition.

I have closely examined my paper targets and have found an interesting thing about my ability to place hits and the kind of holes my two types of ammunition make. I am a slightly better shot when I use 230 grain FMJ with any of my 1911’s than when I shoot 230 grain JHP. I do not know why this is so. My groups are tighter with the FMJ regardless of distance. However, the shape of the hole is with JHP is more jagged than the FMJ.

Taking all of these things into consideration, I find that the fit and balance of the 1911 suits me best and I am developing good training techniques by frequent practice. I also know that my marksmanship is good with either FMJ or JHP ammo. The bottom line is I am confident that if I must confront an aggressor, I am armed with the kind of handgun and ammunition to stop the aggressor.

 

[krept]

Good post.

If you can't hit fast AND accurate enough with your chosen platform or caliber, you must either

- dedicate yourself to that combo and train until it becomes second nature

- use different gear.

 

[DonGlock26]

I'm with you, Blackhawk!

 

[TDDude]

Hey there mr Agtman

OK, So I like to exaggerate when making a point. It's more fun.

However, by your own numbers, and even from Georgia Arms website, the 9mm I've found costs half as much as the 10mm that GA has listed and twice as much is twice as much. And don't forget shipping. It costs me about $16 per 1000 rnds when I get online ammo. If one orders 200lbs worth of "stuff" at a time, (7 cases) this shipping charge is reduced by a little more than half. I'm not sure what the exact amount is but it just about pays for that 7th box (if it's 9mm of course).

 

[goon]

I doubt that a bad guy would walk away from a few well placed hits with any of the above.
But the .45ACP is slow. When I had mine, I could shoot at about 40 yds and see the bullets on their way to the target.
It was kinda cool

My failure to stop drill involves me with my hands around the bad guy's throat. He should be pretty weak after I shoot him full of holes.

 

[agtman]

TDDude:

Wasn't trying to flame you in my earlier post. Just trying to dispel the myth that 10mm ammo, always and everywhere, costs an arm and a leg and half your gun collection. It doesn't.

You're right that, as compared to 9mm, the relative prices for the larger pistol calibers (.40S&W/10mm/45acp) are higher.

But decent prices for practice ammo (again, in 40/10mm/45) are really closer in these calibers than most people realize. Most "weekend shooters" think nothing of walking into the corner gunshop and paying full rip-off retail. But much better prices are available elsewhere, especially if you buy by the case load. You just have to do a little research. It always amazes me when some poster claims that he can't afford 10mm at "$30 a box."

The option of easily buying on-line from these smaller outfits, like Georgia Arms or ProLoad, and the ability of these places to offer competitive prices in all calibers against the Big Name ammomakers, keeps us big bore owners "in the game," so to speak, because now we can afford to practice more. There's reloading, of course, but many simply don't have the time for it.

"And don't forget shipping."


At least a couple of the times that I ordered from GA (1000rd case orders), shipping was FREE, because my FFL also placed orders for others.

Can't beat that.

http://www.georgia-arms.com

 

[goon]

Another option would be learning how to reload.
I know that some don't want the trouble or have the time, but it would be worth looking into if you want to be able to shoot more.
You won't save money, because you will just shoot up your profit margin.
Also, I don't know if S&B makes 10mm, but I know that they make 9mm, .40, and .45. I have shot quite a bit of the 9mm and have found it to be as good as domestic stuff, but it is loaded hotter.
Makes UMC look like a sissy load...
Anyhow, it is generally cheaper than the domestic stuff too.

 

[StressPuppy]

shepsan -- Good post.

The most important point of shepsan's post, IMO, was that he/she is more accurate with the 1911. To me, it is like arguing over buying a Honda or Toyota. Both great cars. Both well made. Both will last a long time. Which is best for you?

While we "argue" about this, why not talk about the Desert Eagle in 50 cal? Its bullet is bound to be big and hard hitting! But who would want to carry that beast. So pratical limits and personal preference MUST come into play. If I can't hit something with a 45 cal because I am not accurate with it, then 8 45s downrange that strike nothing are pretty worthless. I am not trying to restate the shot placement argument as much as I am saying that each person has to take into account what fits them best, what they can carry comfortably, and what they can be accurate with. That will actually narrow things down for most people.

If I buy in to the argument about a 45 (1911 or otherwise), but the gun is bulky enough that I hate carrying it so there are times that I don't, then what is the point. If there is a gun, regardless of caliber, that I am comfortable with, accurate with, and have no problem carrying in my situations (work, etc), then that is what I should go with. The minute I leave it at home because it is bulky or uncomfortable or just a pain, the BG wins and I lose. Period.

The logical follow up to this, for me, would have to be practice. Most states require you get a learners permit and practice driving before you actually get your full blown drivers license. Having/carrying a gun should not be different. If you plan to use it, you had better be sure that you are very comfortable with it and how it reacts (and how you react) in many different situations.

So, for me, praticalilty and practice are what I look at first. If I then decide to go 9mm, I try to address other issues with the load (+P or +P+). When I first starting shooting, I started with a SIG P226. I shoot in IDPA matches quite frequently and thought that was a good gun. And it is. But I shot a 1911 and found that I was more accurate with it, so I started using it. It had nothing to do with the caliber. I was just more accurate. I am now moving to a Steyr M9, mainly because I can't seem to stick with one gun , but also because the ammo is cheaper. This is not really part of this discussion, but I wanted to let you know why I started shooting the 1911.

Finally, we talk about people getting hit in the chest and continuing to attack. I would love to know what the percentage of this happening is, in relation to all defensive gun shootings. I would be that it would be very small.

JMO...........


"...things...don't react well to bullets..."
(Sean Connery in "The Hunt for Red October")

 

[BevrFevr]

the round that kills more than all others is

(in America) the lowly .22lr.

I love reading these mine is bigger than yours and therefore it is better stuff.

Of course I know that anything bigger than a 9mm is MAGIC.

What I want to know is who is talking to your women while you guys run all these scenarios though your heads?

-bevr