This thread is fascinating. We are now at 250+ posts and the eleventh page discussing the relative merit of the .380 ACP cartridge. No wonder ammo can be hard to find! It seems worth noting that the word "marginal" is not an insult. It is just a description. Marginal only has meaning measured against a benchmark and benchmarks can change as circumstances change. Everything is a trade-off but the passion which this subject arouses is truly interesting and illuminating. It used to be said that a lot of people talked about .45s but actually carried smaller J-frames. I wonder if that has changed to smaller .380s in many cases.
Is 380 Just A Marginal Round?
- Thread starter kokapelli
- Start date
- Status
Panzerschwein
member
The .380 is effective IF you can place it right.
As has been discussed ad nauseum, there is absolutely NO difference in the ability of the common handgun calibers to stop a threat. There is no such thing as "stopping power" when comparing handgun cartridges. As long as the bullet can penetrate deep enough to vitals, it will be just as effective as long as the shooter can place rounds on target. That is the only thing that matters, doesn't matter if it's a .357 magnum, a .45 ACP, or a .380... if you can't hit the vitals with it, it will fail. No amount of power will make up for a bad shot.
A hit with a .380 is better than a miss with a .45
As has been discussed ad nauseum, there is absolutely NO difference in the ability of the common handgun calibers to stop a threat. There is no such thing as "stopping power" when comparing handgun cartridges. As long as the bullet can penetrate deep enough to vitals, it will be just as effective as long as the shooter can place rounds on target. That is the only thing that matters, doesn't matter if it's a .357 magnum, a .45 ACP, or a .380... if you can't hit the vitals with it, it will fail. No amount of power will make up for a bad shot.
A hit with a .380 is better than a miss with a .45
Bovine Fecies
Depends on what vitals you're talking about CNS isn't going to matter much, but there's an awefully lot of vital tissue that ain't CNS that more damage= faster incapacitation.
Not to mention skeleton damage.
380 ain't gonna break a hip or femur like a heavy 45 will.
Shawn Dodson
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 3,202
I wouldn't get too wrapped up in the FBI's 18" penetration. Minimum penetration depth (i.e., adequate penetration) is most important.
The best modern JHP bullet designs penetrate between 13"-16" in bare gelatin and gelatin covered by four layers of denim cloth. This appears to be the sweet spot for penetration of bullets that reliably demonstrate excellent terminal performance. Physics is what it is.
Why aren't they all driving Ford or Chevrolet? I am not saying the .380 is my favorite caliber. I am saying that no one should call any gun "Marginal" when it comes to people being potentially shot. They are all deadly. Saying any caliber that uses smokeless or black powder is "Marginal" is ridiculous to me IMO.
I have a$700 air rifle that you fill with an air compressor. It will cause harm to you just the same as a $35 air rifle from China-mart. The point being is there isn't a "Marginal" gun or caliber. Leading people to believe so is dangerous. People don't have the common sense of a potato these days..........
I have a$700 air rifle that you fill with an air compressor. It will cause harm to you just the same as a $35 air rifle from China-mart. The point being is there isn't a "Marginal" gun or caliber. Leading people to believe so is dangerous. People don't have the common sense of a potato these days..........
Shawn Dodson
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 3,202
.380 ACP is a marginal cartridge for the intended purpose of self-defense - the ability to reliably reach and damage vitals critical to immediate survival. .380 JHP bullets that expand don't reliably penetrate deeply enough, whereas .380 FMJ bullets that do penetrate deeply crush a small diameter permanent cavity that does not facilitate blood loss in rate and volume to produce rapid incapacitation of a determined attacker.
45_auto
Member
shawn dodson said:
Does this also mean that a .45 is more effective than a 9mm because the .45 crushes a larger diameter permanent cavity, or does your argument only apply to 9mm vs .380?
Yikes there it is:
Comparison site for Winchester's Ranger:
http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf
147gr 9mm RA9T - 14.5" penetration .66" expansion
230gr 45+P RA45 - 15.2" penetration .78" expansion
Yes I'd say the RA45 is more effective.
crazysccrmd
Member
I think we're just about there...
So this statement suggests that the .380 Winchester White Box or Buffalo Bore solid lead in .380 is in fact NOT marginal. As it meets the 18 soft tissue requirements according to the FBI. And I'd like to throw in the 90 grain XTP moving at 1200fps into this 12" to 18" penetration achiever whether it expands or not. I think that line right there completely makes this entire thread "Marginal" as the .380 will meet those requirement with several rounds on the market.
Sounds like you all just talk yourself into a corner that actually debunked the question of "Is the .380 marginal?" According to the FBI it is not marginal. That is how I read that statement from
Correct?
Last edited:
Deaf Smith
Member
It get its velocity from a 3.5" Bersa Thunder. Consistently. The velocities are from 1190 to 1204. Mostly right at 1204 fps.
The Chrony is setup at 12 ft. from the barrel.
I would say, yes, the Hornady is guaranteed to hold together and penetrate 12 to 18 inches be it expanded or plugged. I shot a deer with a .32 H&R magnum from a short barrel pistol to put it down. It had a 100 grain XTP Chrony speed of 1100 fps. It penetrated very well while breaking two vertebrate, but according to the FBI expansion is not a factor in their test.
Yes.
I am not fooling myself. You are underestimating. I guess all those killed with a .380 wish it really was a marginal round. I own about every caliber of pistol. At last count 10 calibers in pistol rounds. Any one of them is capable of penetrating 12 to 18 inches with ammo even if (especially) if it is doesn't expand.
My air gun is rated to 3000 psi. I don't think I am over compressing it.
Phaedrus/69
Member
A round flunks the FBI tests if it doesn't expand IIRC. Ball won't expand. Heck, if all they wanted was penetration they'd have just went to the 147gr Flat Nosed FMJ back in the 80's. Loaded hot that will go through almost three feet of ord gel.
Deaf Smith
Member
Eb1 said:
Getting 'killed' is not what a defensive pistol is all about.
Stopping a determined attacker is what it is all about.
And if expansion is not part of the protocol then why don't they use fmj?
Like I said folks, study the works of Ayoob, Spauling, and Fracker.
Deaf
Nom de Forum
Member
Deaf Smith
Member
Sure hope your opponent lets you have that 'good shot placement' under adverse conditions while they try to end your life. Most altercations are in poor light with a lot of them with folks moving and hiding.
Cause you see when people fight back.. they really do fight back. Ain't no square range on a pretty day.
Deaf
Yes and that holds true for whatever caliber you are using.
Sure I know what marginal means.
Also, I read what the FBI said. My thought is they don't use FMJ because of over penetration, or they would use FMJ with a flat nose.
It doesn't matter to me what you all think really. I think I have made a decent debate that the .380 at least from a 3.5" barrel is as good as any other caliber, and meets the FBI standard of 12" to 18" according to their documentation.
So if you think the .380 is marginal then by all means carry something bigger. Just don't come crying if your .45 doesn't do the job when you're a marginal shooter.
By the way. I like the .45 ACP. Own a couple, and carry them with me in the car on long trips. Not because I think the .380 is marginal, but because I like the track record of the .45 ACP. I shoot nothing but ball ammo in it. It is what it was designed to shoot, and it shoots it well.
Also, I read what the FBI said. My thought is they don't use FMJ because of over penetration, or they would use FMJ with a flat nose.
It doesn't matter to me what you all think really. I think I have made a decent debate that the .380 at least from a 3.5" barrel is as good as any other caliber, and meets the FBI standard of 12" to 18" according to their documentation.
So if you think the .380 is marginal then by all means carry something bigger. Just don't come crying if your .45 doesn't do the job when you're a marginal shooter.
By the way. I like the .45 ACP. Own a couple, and carry them with me in the car on long trips. Not because I think the .380 is marginal, but because I like the track record of the .45 ACP. I shoot nothing but ball ammo in it. It is what it was designed to shoot, and it shoots it well.
Deaf Smith
Member
Hence use the largest most powerful caliber you can control and conceal.
And watchfob size .380s are hard to shoot well. Small grips, small sights, poor triggers, and weak cartridge.
Deaf
- Status
