Is 380 Just A Marginal Round?

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You're disabled at the side of the road changing a flat tire and a bad guy(s) stops to rob you because he believes you're vulnerable. If you have to shoot through automotive glass or sheet metal to defend yourself the difference in performance between 9mm and .380 will be realized.
If they guy your defending yourself from is behind glass, how is he shooting at you?

Second, what makes you think 380 is not capable of shooting through glass?

check out this video testing 380 through a car windshield.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhfKSXWLNxg&spfreload=10
 
There are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics.

I put Marshall, Sanow and Greg Ellifritz all in the same category - persons who do not understand mathematics or statistics.
 
If they guy your defending yourself from is behind glass, how is he shooting at you?

Second, what makes you think 380 is not capable of shooting through glass?

check out this video testing 380 through a car windshield.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhfKSXWLNxg&spfreload=10
He is shooting at you through the glass or door. There are many examples of that. Just google 'man shot in car' and you will see examples in the news.

If you can shoot through glass, trust me, he can to.

There are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics.

I put Marshall, Sanow and Greg Ellifritz all in the same category - persons who do not understand mathematics or statistics.

Massad Ayoob pretty much as the same stats as Marshall & Sanow. David Spauling has his own stats to. All of them are in rough agreement that... bigger bullets tend to stop better, faster bullets tend to stop better, better constructed bullets (read JHP or SWC) do to as well as shot placement.

Deaf
 
He is shooting at you through the glass or door. There are many examples of that. Just google 'man shot in car' and you will see examples in the news.

If you can shoot through glass, trust me, he can to
Deaf
I still would like to see something that suggests 380 is marginal and not just assumptions.

Yes it does penetrate car doors too as you can see in this test...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFluwap-Cxs

At this point I'm totally convinced that the nay sayers have nothing other than their biases.
 
I still would like to see something that suggests 380 is marginal and not just assumptions.

Then re-read your posts. You have established it is marginal when you posted the Webster definition of the word. ..."just barely adequate or within a lower limit..."

The best criteria we have for ammunition effectiveness that is derived from real-world data, takes into account anatomy, and is absolutely quantifiable and comparable, is the FBI specifications of 12" minimum penetration in calibrated ballistics gel through 4 layers denim with expansion.

So, according to Webster and the FBI specs, the best .380 loads are "marginal" in that they just make 12" and expand.

If you have some other way of determining the wound effectiveness performance envelope aside from the FBI specs or purely anecdotal data (where sometimes a .22 is a one shot stop and sometimes a .44 mag isn't), I'm all ears.

What constitutes the effective range of handgun performance to you so we can see how the .380 fits into that envelope?
 
I like 380 because it works well for me and my siduation.

I hoped someone would be able to present evidence either way whether 380 is an effective or is not an effective self Defence round and after all the post all I see are opinions based on I don't know what? And ballistic numbers, but nothing to show that 380 is actually not adaquet for self defence.

Statements like what if you have to shoot through glass or car doors which it turns out 380 does well shows me that the anti 380 posters just don't have any actual facts to backup their negative opinions on the 380 round and have left me convinced it is an ok self defense round.

So with that, I am loading up a bunch of Glock magazines and will be heading to the range tomorrow to practice with my excellent G42 380.:D
 
Statements like what if you have to shoot through glass or car doors which it turns out 380 does well shows me that the anti 380 posters just don't have any actual facts to backup their negative opinions on the 380 round and have left me convinced it is an ok self defense round.

What's lacking is penetration performance data AFTER .380 ACP perforates automotive glass and sheetmetal. .380 bullets aren't designed to perform well against these common barriers.

Blind faith is required in the absence of valid and verifiable data.
 
I like 380 because it works well for me and my siduation.

I hoped someone would be able to present evidence either way whether 380 is an effective or is not an effective self Defence round and after all the post all I see are opinions based on I don't know what? And ballistic numbers, but nothing to show that 380 is actually not adaquet for self defence.

Statements like what if you have to shoot through glass or car doors which it turns out 380 does well shows me that the anti 380 posters just don't have any actual facts to backup their negative opinions on the 380 round and have left me convinced it is an ok self defense round.

So with that, I am loading up a bunch of Glock magazines and will be heading to the range tomorrow to practice with my excellent G42 380.:D
It's not 'what if'. I posted several actual news articles where people fired into and out of cars.

It does happen. Just as you might have to shoot through an assailants shoulder (side shot) to get to the vitals or confronted with a rather overweight individual that is a bit.. uh, to thick for the .380s to penetrate.

And not all shots will be strait in shots on attackers that have minimal clothing and are not more than 16 inches wide. They can also be on drugs, insane, really angry, etc... and thus harder to stop.

And that is more reasons to not use 'marginal' rounds that just barely make it in test.

Deaf
 
It's not 'what if'. I posted several actual news articles where people fired into and out of cars.

It does happen. Just as you might have to shoot through an assailants shoulder (side shot) to get to the vitals or confronted with a rather overweight individual that is a bit.. uh, to thick for the .380s to penetrate.

And not all shots will be strait in shots on attackers that have minimal clothing and are not more than 16 inches wide. They can also be on drugs, insane, really angry, etc... and thus harder to stop.

And that is more reasons to not use 'marginal' rounds that just barely make it in test.

Deaf
Yeah I probably would have better odds of winning the lottery than getting into one of your scenarios.
 
I've heard ShootingTheBull410 distinguish "duty" ammo from "SD" ammo by saying police may need to shoot through barriers (like windshields), and need ammo designed to do that.

I think when people envision those scenarios they're thinking of cops firing into the windshield of an oncoming car driven by a felon or something like that. And they're thinking they're unlikely to do anything similar in a self defense scenario.

In my mind though, a car jacking is a possibility. It is a remote possibility but no more remote than being mugged, robbed or encountering home invaders.

I do want a bullet that can go through car glass and reach vital tissue, possibly after passing through a forearm or a bicep. I may need to shoot through my driver's side or passenger side window.

I don't know if Precision One's loading of the .380 Hornady XTP can do that. I think the .380 Lehigh Extreme Penetrator probably could do that.

I know the Winchester 147gr Ranger "T" Series - RA9T can do that. I know the Federal 147gr HST can do it.
 
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I am not a ballistics expert, but I dont have to be to know a 9mm is more powerful than a .380
Is it a serviceable self defense cartridge? Sure it is..
That being said it just like every thing in life. There are trade offs.
If I am going through a high threat area. I am not carrying my snubby 327 mag or my .380
I will have my AR with a couple 30 round mags on the floor of my truck.
I can do that if I want. In MN its a carry permit not a CC permit. I can tape it on my forehead if it so pleases me. ( Of course I would look stupid)

Point is, if the only choice or factor involved was the caliber. We would all choose the biggest, fastest, hardest hitting round we could get.
But its not. The .380 is popular because it fills a nitch. Its a serviceable cartridge that fits in a package that people like to carry.
When you carry it though. You need to be aware of what it can do and what it cant do.
Factor that in to your process.
Its a last resort option so treat it as such. Be situational aware, keep you head on a swivel, Avoid trouble areas. If you do those things you have just increased the effectiveness of your carry option and narrowed your risks.
 
Post #317!

But what if I am in a downtown Atlanta 'hood and I am attacked by 10 drugged up thugs, all over 300 pounds, all wearing heavy jackets and 6 layers of denim, all turned sideways behind glass?
At this point every handgun available, regardless of caliber, becomes marginal. Maybe the PMR-30 with 30 rounds and a user capable of making head shots is the best option in this scenario.
Marginal, as it involves this discussion, depends on the situation and none of us can know what that will be until it happens. Pretty much everyone agrees that a Kel Tec P3AT is not the most effective SD handgun but that doesn't mean it isn't capable of getting us out of virtually any SD scenario. Check out the video of the old guy in Florida chasing off two armed thugs with a 380 shortly after the Zimmerman shooting. Multiple armed bad guys, chased off and shot with a 380.
The 380 round generally passes the test in ballistics gelatin. If we are attacked by ballistic gelatin then it will work fine. Will it shoot through glass, an arm, a heavy jacket, 6 layers of denim, a 300 pound man, and still get 12" of penetration?
 
You're disabled at the side of the road changing a flat tire and a bad guy(s) stops to rob you because he believes you're vulnerable. If you have to shoot through automotive glass or sheet metal to defend yourself the difference in performance between 9mm and .380 will be realized.

If he won't roll down his window it would be more difficult to give him my wallet than a .380 slug.

It's not the odds that I worry about, it's the stakes


That reminds me - I still haven't paid my meteor insurance premiums this a month. Check going out now!
 
Just stagger a few FMJ's in with your hollow points. That is not a new concept. Or just the chambered round, or first one in the mag. That will penetrate the barrier and clear the way, also account for heavy clothes.
 
Just stagger a few FMJ's in with your hollow points. That is not a new concept. Or just the chambered round, or first one in the mag. That will penetrate the barrier and clear the way, also account for heavy clothes.
How will one .355 inch bullet 'clear away' the barrier?

Deaf
 
Just stagger a few FMJ's in with your hollow points. That is not a new concept. Or just the chambered round, or first one in the mag. That will penetrate the barrier and clear the way, also account for heavy clothes.
Well since you know how the gunfight is gonna go down an know what order to place the rounds, why don't you just use these prognosticative powers and ditch the gun and stay home that day:scrutiny:
 
I keep drafting posts for this thread, and then I end up deleting them ...

Discussions which involve semantics, and the application of often malleable personal definitions of words like "marginal", hardly ever end up at some mutually agreeable consensus or definitive answer. How surprising is that? :scrutiny:

Rather than belabor all the things I sometimes offer in threads like this, I'll try to stick to some basic elements.

The venerable Browning .380 ACP caliber has been with us for just over 100 years. Probably not going away anytime soon.

It's been enjoying a huge spike in popularity among both commercial/private and LE shooters in the last few years. In one armorer class last year I was told that it's been the fast-growing caliber for commercial ammunition sales in the last couple of years. Maybe so.

The continuing introduction of both really diminutive and "comfortably larger" new pistol models (think G42 & LC380) has apparently helped fuel this cyclical resurgence of interest. The increase of women shooters interested in this caliber has reportedly been significant (from the perspective of some of the gun companies, at least).

The .380 isn't a common, modern "service/duty" caliber. Not likely to see it start appearing in basket-weave uniform holsters as a primary weapon.

However, it's still a small caliber option that's authorized for both secondary/backup & off-duty weapons among LE agencies across the country. It's reportedly saved the lives of cops in this role. (Just like the venerable .38 Spl in 5-shot snubs.)

Sure, there are always going to be folks who feel a secondary/backup weapon ought not be chambered in anything less than a service/duty grade caliber. (I remember in earlier years (80's) when some guys carried .22's, .25's, .32's & .380's ... but other guys carried .45 ACP (Commanders) or .357 Magnum (2 1/2" Model 19's) as "secondary/backup" weapons.

Even in the 70's-80's you could hear strong opinions voiced that an emergency backup weapons needed to be at least as powerful as the primary weapon's caliber.

Then again, you could also hear some cops express how they wanted a small hideout (like a .22LR/Mag or .25) that could be kept in the event of an Onion Field situation. Kind of depends which water cooler you wanted to frequent (or which gun writer you favored).

Rather than get caught up in the whole "marginal" debate, I tend to look at it from the narrow perspective of what it means to me.

The smallest of the new models can fit where my J-frames can't go. Sometimes that's a handy consideration. (Beats relying upon a "tactical pen", in my opinion.)

It's never going to "equal" my 9's, .40's, .45's, or even my .38 Spl snubs (especially loaded with heavier bullet weights).

As long as I can run my LCP's (I now own a pair of them) in realistic drills and COF's, and do so rapidly, controllably and accurately enough to be at least minimally acceptable & adequate for my needs, I'll accept the potential disadvantages in some situations and anticipated circumstances.

The .380 is arguably a better option than a .22 or .25, and probably better than a "tactical pen" when it comes down it.

No, I won't get rid of my .38's, 9's, .40's or .45's.

More range time and attention to realistic training to correct both acknowledged and unacknowledged shooter problems. Less bickering about make/model of guns, calibers and whatever might be the "ultimate JHP" of the moment.

Winning an internet argument, or stridently voicing an opinion, will never save your life if & when an actual imminent deadly force situation comes calling. ;)
 
kokapelli said:
Is 380 Just A Marginal Round?
In response to the OP and, no, I have not read the subsequent 322 posts ...

I consider the 9x17 to be a "marginal" carry pistol choice.

That said, I still often carry a P3AT ... but I always carry an extra 6-round mag with it and if I ever have to use it I am prepared to fire all 7 rounds prior to reloading & pausing to re-assess the threat.

In such a rare circumstance, odds are, that the range will be very short because, given greater separation, I will probably have a much better chance of escaping the scenario rather than engaging.
 
A 380 will not incapacitate an assailant. You use a 380 to distract an assailant until you can reach your 308, which will simply section him lengthwise.
 
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