Is copper fouling real?

[Jdague12]

I know I should, but I just can’t say goodbye to No. 9 yet. It’s been a very very long relationship and she’s ALWAYS done me right. Hoppe’s and BreakFree

 

[mjsdwash]

I've had it build up enough on a Ruger New Vaquero (appx 5-7K), and an AR (about 15K) enough to effect accuracy.
I have a Springfield GI that looks like those Vihtavuori pics after a few shots. It leads quickly too, but it never looses accuracy.

 

[JFrank]

Definitely real. I had some fouling on the lands of both my Glock Barrels, factory and KKM. Always used the nylon brush, and always looked great. Then I took some Youtube Advice and used a brass brush and afterwards noticed scratches. I was like ***?! Did my research and there is no way brass would scratch either barrel. Upon more YT advice I spun the brass brush on a drill, let me tell you, that barrel came out smooth, except for some obvious buildup on some of the lands. Upon further research, turns out fouling on the lands is copper. I only have ballistol, let it soak, and nothing. Was researching other products and methods.
Upon more YT advise, I took a smaller bore brush and wrapped copper wool around it. Did my thing on it and fouling still there. Used the drill again, still there. So I figured I need some solvent, which I dont have. So took my KKM barrel to the sink to wash and it came to my mind to let it sit in soap for a few and try the brush again. I **** you not I only stroke by hand a few times and took a peep, something was different. Blew out the water and the fouling was gone, the bore looked as good as new. Did the same procedure with the Glock barrel, hot damn, them some nice rifling.

you use a drill motor to rotate a bronze brush in the bore ?

 

[StrykerByte.45]

you use a drill motor to rotate a bronze brush in the bore ?

No. I used a brass brush. Bronze is harder. The drill did nothing for fouling but actually exposed it to me because the bore looked apparently clean. After, I used Dawn Dishsoap and a strip of copper wool wrapped around a smaller bore brush. Washed it like a dish and good as new. Aftrerwards dropped the barrel in boiling water only to rapid dry it. 5 minutes and pull it out let it sit, 5 minutes its dry, 15 minutes it can be handled. Ran ballistol through it and patches.

 

[StrykerByte.45]

No. I used a brass brush. Bronze is harder. The drill did nothing for fouling but actually exposed it to me because the bore looked apparently clean. After using Dawn Dishsoap and a strip of copper wool wrapped around a smaller bore brush. Washed it like a dish and good as new. Aftrerwards dropped the barrel in boiling water only to rapid dry it. 5 minutes and pull it out let it sit, 5 minutes its dry, 15 minutes it can be handled. Ran ballistol through it and patches.

Honestly, the pics don't do it any justice.

 

[JFrank]

No. I used a brass brush. Bronze is harder. The drill did nothing for fouling but actually exposed it to me because the bore looked apparently clean. After using Dawn Dishsoap and a strip of copper wool wrapped around a smaller bore brush. Washed it like a dish and good as new. Aftrerwards dropped the barrel in boiling water only to rapid dry it. 5 minutes and pull it out let it sit, 5 minutes its dry, 15 minutes it can be handled. Ran ballistol through it and patches.[/QUOTE

Please don’t take offense but the Brass /Bronze brushes we purchase at the LGS are one in the same for our purposes.
Do as you wish of course but for the world wide audience reading these threads I highly recommend NOT following the practice of using a drill motor and follow the instructions of making passes in line with the riflings by hand.
And don’t just take my word for it rather call any quality barrel maker and ask them if they warranty barrels cleaned in such a manner.

Krieger-262-628-8558
Bartlein -262-677-1717 - Frank
Douglas -304-776-1341- Stan

 

[wbm]

If you are Buddhist, not real. Is vibration. Loss of harmony cause copper fouling.

I know I should, but I just can’t say goodbye to No. 9

Nothing wrong with No.9 except lack of time or patience on the part of those who prefer something a bit more aggressive. Cleaning after each shooting session and Hoppe's overnight has worked quire well for decades.

 

[Archie]

I do know cupronickel alloy was first (in a general meaning of the word) used for smokeless powder cartridges. It worked much better than 'just lead' bullets and prevented leading. In brief, cupronickel is an alloy of copper and nickel and stuff (look it up) and is easily recognized as a silver looking jacket on vintage jacketed ammunition. One finds it on ammunition produced up to about the middle 1920s and possibly later depending on caliber and place of manufacture.

The problem with cupronickel is the use rubs on on the bore similar to leading. Not as fast and not as noticeable, but to the point rifles can be subject to dangerous chamber pressures resulting from the fouling actually constricting the barrel.

Around the middle 1920s (according to my studies) 'gilding metal' largely of copper was found to serve much better as jacketing material. Gilding metal is high copper content brass and stuff (look it up as well). Consequently, there is still some copper fouling in the bore as a result, but not nearly as much.

I understand the copper fouling is detrimental to precision accuracy. Frankly, it's not that big a deal to me. The farthest distance I've shot at anything is the 600 yard range on the National Match Course for High Power Rifle. (Six minute of angle bullseyes.) In reality, that has been a long time ago. I shot it as part of the Marine Corps team at Camp Pendleton, California. No one mentioned copper fouling, but that was in the 1970s.

I currently collect WW1 rifles and having been briefed (by a target shooter) regarding copper fouling, I started using a commercial compound to dissolve copper fouling in the older rifles and find a lot of blue patches, deriving from the copper oxide being removed. I'm pretty convinced of the phenomenon. Does it hurt anything? Not to me that I've noticed. But as I mentioned, I am not rabid about precision shooting at more than 600 yards at targets less than six minutes of angle. I expect those who shoot bench rest at 1000 yards may have other concerns.

 

[StrykerByte.45]

Just to make it clear, I didn't advise anyone to use the drill method. I am attesting that it did nothing to the fouling, much less to clean the barrel, much less to damage it. If you're LGS is selling bronze brushes as brass, try a new LGS. Note that some brushes the core is a different metal, like a bronze core, brass brush.
Seems to me the only thing needed is Dawn dish soap and a quality brush, nylon might do it. If not, just wrap a tiny bit of copper wool around it. I used a 9mm brush to clean a .45 barrel. You can run the brush forward a few times, like I said, it didn't take much effort.
Of course, not every gun's barrel removes and is that easy to wash and dry.

 

[mcb]

Barnes CR-10 makes quick and easy work of copper/brass fouling.

 

[Laphroaig]

It is basically impossible to clean the rifle now. No amount of cleaning and no magic chemical will get it done. The patches always come out blue, indicating there is still copper in the barrel. The first 10 or so passes with the bore brush will produce actual copper shavings from the barrel. It's unbelievable.

Copper solvents can only do so much for a badly fouled barrel. Every so often you need to scrub the bore with JB Borepaste to get it squeaky clean.

 

[JFrank]

I had to double check my stash of brushes noting a combination of bronze bristle and brass core.

 

[mcb]

Copper solvents can only do so much for a badly fouled barrel. Every so often you need to scrub the bore with JB Borepaste to get it squeaky clean.

I have never found a barrel too copper fouled for CR-10. I have put 8000+ rounds of 308 through a barrel and then de-coppered it in a matter of 20-25 minutes with minimal elbow grease. Just run a wet patch run it through and wait a few minutes, wipe it out with a second dry patch. Repeat until the dry patch comes out with no blue on it. De-coppering a barrel really is not that hard.

 

[243winxb]

https://www.barnesbullets.com/our-story/#:~:text=Fred Barnes, founder of Barnes,the couple for several months.

The Barnes first all copper bullet fouled barrels & increased pressure using lead core data. Cutting grooves into the bullet helped. Barnes sells a special copper Remover.

At link, see bullet coating applied to Barnes bullet.

All copper may be something to avoid, unless laws require non-lead bullets.

The bullet types used may leave more or less copper in the barrel. Common bullet jacket alloy is, copper/zinc ratio of 95/5% Zinc acts as a lube.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

I have never found a barrel too copper fouled for CR-10. I have put 8000+ rounds of 308 through a barrel and then de-coppered it in a matter of 20-25 minutes with minimal elbow grease. Just run a wet patch run it through and wait a few minutes, wipe it out with a second dry patch. Repeat until the dry patch comes out with no blue on it. De-coppering a barrel really is not that hard.

I don't know what world you're living in, or maybe what world I'm living in, but I've been using CR-10 for about 5 years and, while it's better than Hoppes, it's not great. No amount of CR-10 and patches will get my patches to come out clean.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

All copper may be something to avoid, unless laws require non-lead bullets.

Fouling is definitely a reason to avoid copper monolithics, however, local environmental laws are not the only reason to switch to copper projectiles. They really do perform far and above your basic copper over lead projectiles. I've never been able to recover a projectile from an animal, but all of my kills with the Barnes TSX have been DRT. Not another step. And the internal organ damage has been...I don't know how to describe it; those bullets turn lungs into jelly. I can't say that for more traditional projectiles. I just doubled down on Barnes this morning and ordered another 200 projectiles, despite the fouling problem.

 

[alsaqr]

i use Hoppes Number 9 Benchrest: It works very well for me, especially when left in the bore overnight.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

The farthest distance I've shot at anything is the 600 yard range on the National Match Course for High Power Rifle.

Same here. That's what I did with my 243 for many years. But even at that range, fouling vs accuracy matter. A loss of just 1 moa of accuracy is a 6" margin. Couple that with wind and/or shooter error and see what you get. Accuracy, at any range for any sport, is a game of variables. Eliminate the variables.

I am not rabid about precision shooting at more than 600 yards at targets less than six minutes of angle. I expect those who shoot bench rest at 1000 yards may have other concerns.

BR guys aren't the only ones. I've seen videos on YT of guys taking game at 600+ yards. (We can hav the discussion on how ethical that is another time.) I hunt caribou. The kill zone is about a 12" zone. 1 moa loss for me is half my target zone at 600 (which is half of why I don't shoot at game that far). Even at 300, its 1/4 of my target area. No one expects a hunting rifle to meet the same standard as a custom match rifle, but, again, I want to eliminate all the variables.

 

[FL-NC]

I have rifles with many thousands of rounds through them that still maintain accuracy and have never had copper remover in the bore.

 

[Master Blaster]

I have rifles with many thousands of rounds through them that still maintain accuracy and have never had copper remover in the bore.

How have you achieved this amazing feat, please share.

 

[Poper]

I have used most of the Endurons, and fouling elimination was never really a reason for me, simply wanted to see if the new "enhanced stability" powders worked well, and generally they do seem to, tho not usually as fast as other options.

My experience as well. I have got better accuracy with 4166 in my Mauser M18 .243 Win. than I did with 4064 with 90gr. and lighter bullets, too. Not quite the velocity, tho.

 

[FL-NC]

How have you achieved this amazing feat, please share.

By shooting them and then cleaning the chamber and bore using a nylon brush and cotton patches with a powder solvent like Mpro7. No secret sauce or voodoo involved.

 

[3Crows]

No. I used a brass brush. Bronze is harder. The drill did nothing for fouling but actually exposed it to me because the bore looked apparently clean. After, I used Dawn Dishsoap and a strip of copper wool wrapped around a smaller bore brush. Washed it like a dish and good as new. Aftrerwards dropped the barrel in boiling water only to rapid dry it. 5 minutes and pull it out let it sit, 5 minutes its dry, 15 minutes it can be handled. Ran ballistol through it and patches.

Are you saying that you are soaking the barrel in Dawn soap? And that it removed lead and copper simply by soaking?

I have used Dawn to clean up muzzle loaders.

3C

 

[StrykerByte.45]

Are you saying that you are soaking the barrel in Dawn soap? And that it removed lead and copper simply by soaking?

I have used Dawn to clean up muzzle loaders.

3C

Si

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Are you saying that you are soaking the barrel in Dawn soap? And that it removed lead and copper simply by soaking?

I have used Dawn to clean up muzzle loaders.

3C

The problem with that is, he is doing it to a pistol barrel, which is easy to drop into a sink or bucket. Try that with a 24" barrel on an action. You would need a special sink or something. I guess yu could do it in your bath tub.