Is second strike capability vastly overrated?

[StrikeEagle]

In all the years I've been shooting, I've yet to have a round that didn't fire on the first strike, do so on a second strike.

This is the exact opposite of my experience. I have used 9mm surplus ammo, especially some Egyptian stuff, that sometimes needs a second smack to fire.

 

[litework]

I will do my tap-rack-bang. You practice waiting 30 seconds before clearing your stoppage and then if you ever need that skill in real life that is how you will carry it out. I prefer to be shooting back!

BTW we are talkin about pistols, not rifles....operating at roughly 2 times the pressure.
Charles

Let me just be sure I have your information straight...You experience enough hangfires that you can demonstrate a significant educational gain in pulling the slide back? The real life skill in your situation should start at your retailer's counter, when you're selecting your ammo. Practicing by using plastic ammo (stovepiped) is a lot safer, though it admittedly lacks the realism some feel they need. I've heard that some people feel they need to go down range and have people shoot near them to simulate "real life" as well. Not my bag.

Yes...we are talking about pistols...and Glocks have never been destroyed by firing out of battery, have they? Yet, you'd intentionally take your gun out of battery with the hopes that you've experienced a "dud" instead of a "hangfire." You're not doing it around me, so I don't have a problem. When I handle a firearm, anytime I handle a firearm, it is real life.

 

[faustulus]

Noone in their right mind is going to keep pulling the trigger on a weapon that just failed to fire, and if they were so untrained and paniced as to do so they would almost certainly just keep on pulling it over and over again without any change in result (click click click click). If you pull the trigger and it doesnt do a damn thing that tells you to stop pulling it and try something else.

My point is people do this, even trained ones. In many cases it is only a couple of times but they still pull the trigger more than they think (according to our law enforecment academy here the average officer when asked how many rounds he fired during a confrontation will almost always say 'two' the average number of rounds fired in such incidents is five)
People getting shot at are not in their right mind. No matter how well trained someone is adrenline will muddy the waters.

Shooting for 35 years and NEVER had a failure to fire on centerfire ammo - NEVER. Not shotgun, rifle, pistol, revolver - Thousands and thousands of rounds - and not one.

shoot more. many people on this board shoot thousands and thousands or rounds a year. Even factory ammo isn't 100 percent perfect, (we had boxes of unfired cases at the range I worked at one summer).

 

[akanotken]

Not a big deal

I agree with these prior statements.

Duds are rare, duds on premium/carry ammo even more rare.However, Second strikes will fix most of the "duds" in my experience.

I'd suspect that if you find yourself on a "2 way gunrange" that you may not know if you've had a FTFire. If so, reflexively pulling the trigger on the "bad round" may cure it.


I don't understand what's so bad about the trigger on these? My p99 has a pretty awesome trigger, and is true DA/SA.

Lastly, and the real reason for chiming in, I'd guess that combining TRB with second strike is the best of both worlds. Squeeze the trigger again as you are positioning your support hand for the TRB.

Again, to many more important traits for this to make the top 3 reasons to buy ...

 

[Charles S]

Let me just be sure I have your information straight...You experience enough hangfires that you can demonstrate a significant educational gain in pulling the slide back?

No...I am sorry if I was not clear. I have developed carry gun, load combinations, that to date are 100% reliable. I have over 500 rounds of my current carry ammo through my current carry gun with zero failures.

In all actuality I can count the number of failure to fires I have experienced with a pistol on one hand. I have never experienced a hang fire from a handgun.

Have you ever experienced a hang fire in a non-magnum handgun?

I have had professional training in combat handguns. People with more experience than me (Mosad Ayoob, Clint Smith, John Farnam) state that in a failure to fire the appropriate action is Tap-rack-bang. This is the drill I practice for failure to fire.

I've heard that some people feel they need to go down range and have people shoot near them to simulate "real life" as well. Not my bag.

You are kidding, right?

Yes...we are talking about pistols...and Glocks have never been destroyed by firing out of battery, have they? Yet, you'd intentionally take your gun out of battery with the hopes that you've experienced a "dud" instead of a "hangfire." You're not doing it around me, so I don't have a problem. When I handle a firearm, anytime I handle a firearm, it is real life.

I don't own a Glock.

I carry a gun for defensive purposes, I have had training in the use of a gun and I practice for that eventuality in hopes it is a skill I have and will never need.

You will act in real life like you practice at the range. I for one will not wait 30 seconds after a failure to fire....My drill will be tap-rack-bang.

If you are implying that I am unsafe....YOU ARE WRONG!

If you are stating that you will wait until you are in a gunfight to learn what to do then you are foolish.

I did not wait until I saw a deer to learn to shoot a rifle. I will not wait to until I am in a defensive situation to learn to shoot a handgun.

I recommend a professional defensive handgun course if you are going to carry a weapon or use it for self defense. "Owning a violin does not make you a musician."

Charles

 

[litework]

In all actuality I can count the number of failure to fires I have experienced with a pistol on one hand. I have never experienced a hang fire from a handgun...

This is the drill I practice for failure to fire.

This is the drill that you routinely practice but have actually practiced less than five times? Were those five occurrences worth risking the possible destruction of your firearm or worse? My point...less than five occurrences in your entire life isn't practicing or training, and it isn't enough to influence your actions in a SD situation. It will matter if you have a hang fire while you're taking your gun out of battery, regardless of the manufacturer. Not worth it given the rarity of the event. Practice tap, rack, bang all you want. I do...I'm not going to do it with live ammunition though. The ten or so times I've had failures to fire doesn't exactly qualify as practicing or training.

I have experienced exactly one hang fire in my entire life (in 1993) with a brand spanking new Glock 23. It remained pointed downrange, but I was carelessly lowering it a little for a better examination when it "popped." The whole event took less than two seconds. The 30 second rule I stated was taken from my Glocks' owner's manuals. My Beretta actually states, "10 seconds." I've experienced more dud rounds than you, but they occurred mostly in striker fired pistols (Glock 23 and Springfield XD) and were a rarity at that. For this reason, I think you have to be much more selective in your ammo with striker fired pistols and clean them regularly, despite internet myths suggesting they don't need it. This is why I've strayed from Glocks...not really its lack of second strike capability.

 

[Charles S]

Were those five occurrences worth risking the possible destruction of your firearm or worse?

Please expalin how I am going to destroy my empty firearm practicing the Tap-rack-bang drill....The drill is practiced with an empty arm. That is how it is taught, that is how I practice.

Practice tap, rack, bang all you want. I do...I'm not going to do it with live ammunition though.

Nor do I...and I never stated I did.

I shot a little over 1000 rounds of 45 ACP last month with mixed brass, AA#5 Powder and Remington 230 gr Golden Sabers.....No failures to fire. I still practice failure to fire drills.

My point...less than five occurrences in your entire life isn't practicing or training, and it isn't enough to influence your actions in a SD situation.

I have drawn a self defense firearm exaclty 2 times in 17 years in a real self defense situation and I have never fired a firearm in self defense. I still practice.

As stated before you will act as you train....train for real life. I highly recomend a good defensive handgun course. I can make recomendations.

I have experienced exactly one hang fire in my entire life (in 1993) with a brand spanking new Glock 23.

BTW....I am glad that worked out OK for you....I know of some bad outcomes with hang fires in Glocks. I have experienced one hang fire, magnum rifle, in my life. It is not an exprerience I wish to repeat.

Charles

 

[Old Dog]

So the question was ... "is second strike capability vastly overrated?"
Until quite recently, I would have answered, "Probably," having never needed it. But, there I was, at the range, re-qual'ing with my department's issue pistol, the vaunted HK USP (in 9mm, no less). In my first string of fire -- lo and behold -- a failure to fire on my fourth shot. What's this? I asked myself while doing a simultaneous assessment of my weapon's condition -- hammer down, but no brass had been ejected following a trigger pull. I pulled the trigger again. Voila! A bang, and a hit in the 10-ring (well, we were still at 7 yards) ... I was surprised, since I shoot 1911s so much more frequently that the USP with its cheese-grater grip feel; it was just a new thing ...

I guess it's nice to have. If I'm gonna be stuck with a DA/SA (TDA) semiauto, better to have it and not need it than ... you know.
(But, I'd still carry a 1911 at work if I could.)

 

[LynnMassGuy]

I find it humorous that double action pistols are being refered to as "second strike capable." Ooooh, so tactical.

 

[Ryder]

Only rounds I've wasted time dropping a hammer on more than once is when target practicing. In actual shooting situations (hunting) I've dumped bad rounds without even remembering it until I went back to pick up my brass later.

 

[SwampWolf]

I've never heard of this happening and don't know if it's even possible but, supposing a defective primer caused the misfire instead of a weak mainspring or some other gun-related problem. Because the primer is defective, is it possible , upon the second hammer strike, for it to have a minimum "spark", causing partial/incomplete detonation of the powder charge, resulting in the worst possible scenario- a squib?

Personally, I don't put a lot of weight in the second-strike capability for a defensive pistol. That said, two of my three carry pistols have a second-strike capability, a USP 40 and a Smith 6906 (the third gun is a Smith 642 revolver ). I also contend that the best course of action for me in the event of a misfire is a quick second go at it, then , if it fails to go off the second time, an instant tap-rack. No need for multiple "clicks"-unless, of course, the misbehaving round is your very last round .

 

[BevrFevr]

over hyped but not over rated

It won't hurt you to have gun that has that capability. I have some.

For me I start to worry when I pull the trigger and the gun don't go bang. At the range I will always try to shoot a ftf just to safely dispose of it.

In a combat situation I would get that (%(*^&*()(*&ing round the hell out of my gun ASAP. What happens if it did not go off because solvent affected the primer or powder or the primer wasn't seated properly and moisture got in.

Your groovy SECOND strike works only to leave you with a PLUGGED BARREL.

Do yourself a favor. When your life depends on it, try to shoot the bad guy with the rounds that go off the first time. I hear it kills them deader somehow.

edited to add that swamp wolf beat me to the point I was making. Great minds think alike.

 

[JohnKSa]

Does anyone else find it interesting that the Glock is often denigrated for lacking a second strike capability but no one ever seems to feel like the 1911's lack of second strike capability is a problem?

I see it as a non-issue.

First of all, you don't know whether you have a misfire or whether it's a failure to feed or a failure of the slide to lock back.

Second, if it IS a misfire, you don't know if a second strike will set it off or if it's just a total dud.

So, you have the following possibilities.

Failure to feed
Failure to lock open
Complete dud
Round will go off with another strike

Without trying to figure out the exact probabilities, it seems fairly obvious that the odds are against a second strike fixing the problem. In 3 out of the 4 possible situations that could result in a "click", the second strike will have zero effect.

Probably wiser to immediately do a clearance drill (which will fix ANY of the problems) rather than waste time clicking the trigger (which will only fix one of the possible problems.)

 

[Charles S]

JohnKSa;

Well stated.

Charles

 

[Shake]

Is it overrated?

Probably by those who use it as justification to buy/not buy a particular firearm.

My opinion is that if you have a failure to fire at the time when you are most likely to really NEED a gun (i.e. a life and death situation) you're going to have enough adrenaline running through you to have pulled the trigger at least twice before your brain registers the click click. In that situation it certainly isn't going to hurt having a firearm with the capability. . . but I don't believe it's necessary.

I think all but the most highly trained (and possibly those who've been in confrontations before) will be so charged with adrenaline as to not register the failure until they've already pulled the trigger again. Recognizing a failure at the range while staring down a sheet of paper is much different than recognizing one and going into a malfunction drill in a life/death situation.

MHO. . .

 

[psychophipps]

I'm a bit confused here. All Glocks are striker fired and DAO. You fully depress the trigger and the hammer will cock back and fall forward to strike the round, or empty chamber, with the firing pin. If you get a "dud" strike on the first trigger pull , what precisely stops the weapon from restriking that same round with a second trigger pull?

Hoping to be informed,
mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

 

[R.H. Lee]

Shouldn't even be a consideration in a defensive pistol IMO. Tap, rack, bang should be the IMMEDIATE response to a failure to fire.

All Glocks are striker fired and DAO. You fully depress the trigger and the hammer will cock back and fall forward to strike the round, or empty chamber, with the firing pin. If you get a "dud" strike on the first trigger pull , what precisely stops the weapon from restriking that same round with a second trigger pull?

Glocks are not DAO and don't have hammers. Once the trigger is depressed, you need to rack the slide to reset it and the striker. The trigger by itself does not 'cock' the stiker.

 

[Shake]

Forgot to mention. . . years ago I read that a very high percentage of rounds that failed to fire on the first strike, fired on subsequent strikes. I have tried to find the information when this subject has come up before, but have failed to do so. I have no idea what kind of research was done to support that claim.

FWIW.

 

[litework]

Please expalin how I am going to destroy my empty firearm practicing the Tap-rack-bang drill....The drill is practiced with an empty arm. That is how it is taught, that is how I practice.

Okay. One of the five times you cleared your firearm was a hangfire which detonated after the tap but before the completion of the rack. If you practice clearing your firearm empty, acting safely when you experience a misfire on the range (it has only occurred 5 times) isn't going to affect your performance in a self defense situation. You have still trained for real life, and you haven't put anyone in danger in the process. In 1993, had I attempted to clear my firearm it could have been a serious problem. I'd be willing to risk it in a fight, but won't do it on the range. I've never experienced a misfire with a high powered rifle. I'm glad you weren't hurt...I've heard about bolts becoming projectiles and causing major damage.

Forgot to mention. . . years ago I read that a very high percentage of rounds that failed to fire on the first strike, fired on subsequent strikes.

...which is really embarrassing when the subsequent, and successful, strike occurs in someone else's firearm.

 

[psychophipps]

Glocks are not DAO and don't have hammers. Once the trigger is depressed, you need to rack the slide to reset it and the striker. The trigger by itself does not 'cock' the stiker.

And their formerly very high spot in my "cool book" has just dropped a few notches.
Still great weapons by many people's reckoning, including my own, but I really like being able to give the round a second go when things go the extreme south. This isn't in response to any real-life 'need' for a restrike in a combat situation, it's because many people in shootings don't remember hearing their weapon discharge or pulling the trigger at all. If I can give myself a restrike in case my brain didn't register, "Your gun din't fire, you idiot!" on the first trigger pull for a 'tap, rack, bang' then I'd call that a good thing.

I'll leave the reality of the situation for the real experts,
Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

 

[Charles S]

Okay. One of the five times you cleared your firearm was a hangfire which detonated after the tap but before the completion of the rack.

Ok....I will concede that point....but not all of the five failures to fire I have experienced have been in an auto....some have been in a revolver. The drill in a revolver is to keep pulling the trigger. Is that any less dangerous?

Again....I have never experienced a hang fire in a handgun.

The experts in shooting recommend and practice tap-rack-bang with the failure to fire. Check with Ayoob, Cooper, Farnam, Miculek, Clint Smith, and others. They all teach tap-rack-bang....and if you watch when they have a real failure to fire...even on the range it is the drill they perform. I for one am not more knowledgeable than that pool, and I will continue to use the skills they teach.

In a firearms course taught by Jerry Miculek I asked him how handgun rounds he typically shoots in a year. Jerry replied that there were years he fired in excess of one million rounds. When he experiences a failure to fire he performs a tap-rack-bang drill. I cannot match that level of experience or skill....I will defer to his knowledge.

It is your call, but I fall back on the adage that you will act in a crisis like you practice in real life.

Again, I highly recommend a good defensive handgun course. There are a lot of them out there. You will learn things that you cannot learn from books, your own experiences, and the internet.

I'm glad you weren't hurt...I've heard about bolts becoming projectiles and causing major damage.

It was in a Remington 700 African Rifle in 416 Remington magnum...No it did not hurt me, but it sure scared me to death!

Charles

 

[medmo]

"Medmo,

Please post some verifiable instances where someone died because their gun did not have second strike.

Overall, was your post supposed to make sense?'

Only to those who apply logic to a mechanical device. Hmmm let's think about this.... Occasionally a pistol fails to go "BANG" and sometimes goes "CLICK" due to a light primer strike. With me so far? Yes, it has occurred. If it has not happened to you then spend some more time on the trigger because it does happen. Now if someone was to get that "CLICK" instead of "BANG" then they must take immediate action. The first step if you have second strike capability is "PULL THE TRIGGER AGAIN' which is not only a natural reaction but also has a significant probability of fixing the problem. This step is absent in single strike only capable designs. Step 2 is now tap the magazine, step 3 is rack the magazine, (hard), and step 4 is attempt to fire, (BANG hopefully). A single strike mechanism starts at step 2.

Show me a "verifiable instance" where a second strike capability didn't save someone's life first and then I'll show you the opposite.

I own Glocks and 1911's that I both shoot well, sometimes carry and enjoy. That doesn't discount to me the general benefit of having second strike capability. I'm sure there are plenty of gun owners who don't even know what Immediate Action is never mind the specific action to their firearm type. Instinctively the first reaction to an unexpected "CLICK' is pull the trigger again which is exactly what they would do dealing with a failure to fire.

Don't even think about throwing revolvers into the subject where with another instinctive pull of the trigger you not only get a second strike but you get a fresh new round...... that would really confound the whole discussion.

The original question is second strike capability overated? My answer is still "NO" depending on the trigger operator and level of expertise.

 

[Marshall]

Why is this being debated? If a gun has the ability, pull the dang trigger again if it doesn't go bang the first time. If the gun doesn't have the ability, it doesn't matter.

Is it overrated? Define the perfect rating first, then we can decide if it's over or under that.

Is it worth buying a gun because of it? I say if you're that worried about ammo, buy better ammo or buy a revolver, or both. If the gun has everything else you want in a gun and has second strike capability too, what the hell? I would worry more about whether the semi-auto is going to reliably feed/eject the round than I would worry about the round itself going bang.

 

[Mute]

Let's take a poll.

How many have pulled the trigger and having a failed ignition, pulled the trigger again to have the round go off?

How many have done the above only to find that the round didn't go off the second time either?

From my experience, the latter happens way more often than the former. But then, all my guns work properly and do not make light strikes on the primer.

 

[albanian]

"Isn't it a waste of time to pull the trigger again and hope the second strike sets the prmer off? Does that EVER happen anyway?"

Every "dud" I have ever had in a centerfire pistol round has gone off with a second strike. Most of my "duds" were cheaper ammo not stuff I would carry for SD anyway. It is much less than 1% chance that you will have a dud in high quality factory ammo but if you ever do, I think that a second strike will often set it off.

I think most people would pull the trigger a second time if they are used to revolvers or DA pistols. I think I would probably just pull the trigger again before I racked the slide in my Beretta if that ever happened. The chances are that with the second pull of the trigger, it will go off.

I don't know if it is overrated or not but it is an advantage not a disadvantage so why not have the option? Self defense is all about odds anyway. We all try our best to stack the odds as much in our favor as we can. You have to balance many options and sometimes we have to give up on something we want to have something else that we want more. I think second strike is a small advantage but I wouldn't trade it for comfort or a gun that I could shoot well. Most of my guns have second strike ability but my Kahr K-9 doesn't. There is no other gun that compares to the K-9 for what I want so I have to compromise on the second strike to get great ergos and a reliable small 9mm auto.