Is the J-Frame "enough gun"?

[MikePGS]

I am yet to buy a CCW pistol, yet from what i've read a lot of people seem to think that the J-Frame revolver is a good choice. That being said, some other people feel the need to carry high capacity auto pistols (not saying theres anything wrong with that at all), and also make good arguments for needing extra rounds in a just in case or SHTF type scenario. So really my question is this: Are five rounds of .38 special "enough"? I know that every scenario is different, and that if we could we'd all be packing rifles or shotguns. However we also know that we can't, and i definitely like the idea of carrying a gun thats always there without being easily spotted. I also know that .38 isn't an ideal round, but with proper shot placement it will do the trick. So really what i'm wondering is should i get a j-frame, or get something else like say a glock 19 or Glock 23 or 1911 (you get the idea)? If you could explain why one of these choices is better than the other it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[glockman19]

In a SHTF scenereo you're going to want a hi cap mag semi auto pistol. The J-frame is a great CCW SD gun.

 

[AStone]

In "normal" conditions,
while walking downtown,
I'll take my 642 in .38 any day.

If the bugaboo bear belches & a balloon goes up,
I'll take my .357 Mag 3" K-frame (65),
plus my 870P & 336A.

 

[10-Ring]

For my application the difference between my G19 and my mod 60 is really overkill (so to speak). The next gunfight I'm in will be my first and I seriously doubt 11 more shots will be necessary..

 

[ArchAngelCD]

5 rounds should be enough if you do your job too. I carry a J frame with 1 reload and I never feel I should carry more. Of course, if you work in a dangerous area at night or something else along those lines more firepower might be necessary.

 

[.cheese.]

I used to carry a J-frame. It's fine.

I transitioned to carrying either my Glock 23 or Glock 27 though. A couple things I liked about the auto-loader is that it's easier and faster to reload (although if you practice with the J-frame you can get fast with that too especially with a speedloader). I also liked the ability to get into nightsights and lasers more easily, although again, also available on the J-frame.

I guess I just liked the added versatility of the J-frame. I also find carrying an extra mag of ammo is in some ways easier than carrying a speedloader.

However, with an autoloader you give some things up, such as reliability (you know with a J-frame that you get 5 shots without question), and you also have less ease of carrying.

So, if you prefer reliability and ease of carrying and are ok with giving up hi-capacity ammo carry (which you most likely won't need) - go with the J-frame.

If you want more ammo, more options in the long-run for add-ons, and are willing to give up some reliability and in most cases ease of carry (although with Glocks it's not really an issue I've found) - go with an autoloader.

for SHTF you're going to want a long gun with hi-capacity.

But if you only plan on getting one gun, go with an autoloader so you have the option of high-capacity for SHTF.

 

[Zeke Menuar]

The J-frame is obsolete.
Too much muzzle blast and recoil.
I never saw a snubbie that shot to point of aim. Despite what the "experts" say, five shots isn't enough.
38spl is marginal from a 2" barrel. 357 is way too much even in a steel framed snubbie.
Just try to load one in a adrenalin rushed hurry.

A lot of folks carry them. Takes a lot of time and practice to get good with one. And a lot more trigger time to keep your skills sharp. Far more than a auto of the same size.

I carried a M36 for a couple of years and a Rossi 677 part time for three years. I hated them both after living with them. They got replaced by a LW Commander.

Unless the J-Frame is your only option, the revolver is an obsolete museum piece. There are far better guns to trust your life with.

This is my opinion your opinion may vary.

ZM

 

[BADUNAME13]

J frame is a great Back up gun...

 

[sm]

MikePGS,


Short answer your question - yes a J frame is enough.

That said, All handguns are not enough, no matter what platform, or how many rounds they carry, or the number of reloads one carries.

You wrote:
I am yet to buy a CCW pistol

Then do not buy one - yet.
Only YOU can determine what works for YOU with some seasoned assistance.

First arm yourself with knowledge.
Mindset is the key.

Mindset means you will seek knowledge from seasoned persons better able to access and assist.

Try a variety of guns with a seasoned person, one that is an instructor in defensive use of handguns is best.
See what platform fits YOUR hands, and allows YOU to reach all the controls and able to do under stress.

A J Frame is not usually recommended as a first handgun.
Especially to new shooters, but I do not know your level of handgun experience.
I also do not know , and none of my business, if you have any physical limitations, such as deformed hands, missing fingers, arthritis, old injury which limits range of motion, ...etc.

This is why I choose to not paint with a broad brush any firearm for anyone.
I do not know all the variables of the user of a firearm.



Gun fit is that important, even for a J frame, different stocks be they rubber or wood, "fit" the gun to each person different, and felt recoil.
Some add a Tyler Grip to assist...

K frames for most folks , fit better, especially with finding the stocks for them.
Felt recoil is better managed as the gun is a bit bigger and weighs more.
Ratio of gun weight to payload - a factor for any gun, no matter if handgun, rifle or shotgun.

Colt Detectives are another favored gun, these "look" like J frames, but "feel" like K frames.

A seasoned instructor, esepecially one that instructs in the defensive use of handguns, will access these things for YOU and YOUR environment.

Semi-Autos,
Well there are again many platforms, some with levers that go "up" , some that go "down" some with no levers and these vary from SA (single action) to DA/SA (double action first shot, then single action thereafter) to DAO (Double Action Only).

Actually shooting these various guns will allow YOU and the seasoned person assisting you to know if you can reach the trigger, and any levers and all under stress.

What I did, was borrow from a known trainer a tip.

Shooters I was assisting had tried a variety a variety of guns for gun fit ( includes reaching trigger, controls and all) and narrowed down choices.
Semis and Revolvers.

Typing paper folded , then folded again [1/4 sheet] placed at 5 yards and only 5 rounds loaded in each gun.
5 rounds covers J frame on up in capacity.

I / we preferred from concealment, still sometimes with no holster, low ready position.

At the buzzer draw and fire 5 rds.

The paper does not lie.

Folks would shoot all the choices they had narrowed down to, and it was that obvious which gun, which caliber, and load from mild to hot in a given caliber they could get quick effective hits with.

Observations:
-.40 caliber guns did not do well due to snappy recoil.
-DA/SA did not do well
-J frames did not do well *
-Small semi-autos did not do well.

K frames (snub nose and 3"), Detective Specials, BHPs, 1911s in Commander and Full size always always gave the best results, from ladies to gents, from new shooter to more experienced shooter.
Dedicated .38spl, 9mm and 45ACP were the preferred calibers.

*Many folks bought a Used Police Trade in dedicated .38spl, and most often a Model 10 [K frame].
Now with quality practice with this gun, they were able to transition to a J frame very well.

Mindset is the key.
For without mindset, one will not seek to try before they buy, get instruction, continue to practice.

Mindset also means not going where trouble is, leaving when trouble shows up and knowing what to do in dealing with trouble if one cannot evade.
One does not always use a firearm when dealing with trouble - the mindset with knowledge, and training is what keeps one alive, the gun may or may not be the tool to use.


Just my take.

 

[k1mri]

Bought my S&W Model 60 back 20 years ago and have been carring every since. Lightweight and easy to conceal in just about any type of weather.

 

[AStone]

The SM Cliff Notes:

K frames for most folks fit better

I agree.

Of course, I put full Hogue Monogrips on my J-frame...

And this:

Mindset is the key.
For without mindset, one will not seek to try before they buy, get instruction, continue to practice.

Mindset also means not going where trouble is, leaving when trouble shows up and knowing what to do in dealing with trouble if one cannot evade.

 

[copaup]

The J frame is small and light enough to be easily carried concealed 99% of the time. It is reliable, powerful enough to get the job done if you do your part, reasonably inexpensive, and accurate once you practice with it. I scored higher on my recent qualifications with my 642 than I did with my 229. The j frame can be fired from a pocket, tucked up against your body, shoved into someone else's body, upside down, limpwristed, or pretty much any other way you can find to pull the trigger.

Cons to the j frame are that it does recoil something fierce in the lighter guns. Its loud. It only has 5 rounds. It takes practice to develop the ability to shoot to the accuracy potential of the gun. Using speedloaders is something of a lost art and needs a good bit of practice to develop proficiency.

To initially qualify with the snubby we had to shoot a 350 round training course with a 50 round qualification with a minimum score of 80. Several shots were taken from the 25 yard line. The course also included 10 rounds, from the holster, with a reload, at the 15 yard line in 20 seconds. All ammo was +P. It's not pleasant to shoot that much, but it can be done. Fifty rounds of 38+P in a single session isn't that bad unless you have one of those scandium guns. Even then, its doable. If you need to use it for real, you won't notice the recoil or noise. Trust me on that.

5 rounds is plenty for most self defense scenarios. Put those rounds where they need to go and they will work. If you have multiple attackers, you'll probably run out of time before you run out of ammo. Reloads with speedloaders are pretty quick with practice.

We issue a Sig 229r and are allowed to carry on and off duty. In addition I have several personally owned firearms that I am quite fond of, and carry from time to time ranging from a Keltec p3at up to a model 29-2 with a 6 1/2 inch barrel. Unless I am going to be in parts of town where the threat level is higher than average, 90% of the time I'm carrying my 642 in a pocket holster with a speed loader and a speed strip for reloads. I feel perfectly prepared to handle anything that should require an armed response.

The j frame isn't perfect. They are a bit demanding to shoot well and there are more potent calibers available. Some people prefer autos to revolvers (I own more autos than wheelguns myself). Autos do tend to reload quicker and certainly hold more ammo. I'd definately prefer my 229 to a 6 shot revolver as a duty weapon. My personal favorite defensive handgun is the Glock 19 as it provides a wonderful balance of size, controllability, and firepower. It is however to large to fit in a pocket and after a while you get tired of vests and Hawaiian shirts to cover a belt holster just to run to the corner store. The J frame sacrifices capacity for convenience, but to say that the J frame revolver is obsolete or useless is hogwash.

IMHO of course.

 

[AStone]

Well said, Copaup.

FWIW, I grew up in Meomphis.

 

[jt1]

MikePGS - As you are aware there are many factors to consider when making such an important decision. I took a few minutes and scanned your previous posts and threads to see if I could get a feel for your preferences and it seems you are interested in just about every kind of handgun and rifle, so not much help there.

The things to look at in general are your lifestyle, your threat environment, your reasons for wanting to have a CCW, and your commitment to training with your selected weapon/s.

Your lifestyle will dictate to a large degree when you can carry and what you can reasonably conceal base upon you clothing and workplace location. Your profile states you are employed in a furniture warehouse and this is a good thing from a CCW perspective as you clothing and surroundings will permit you to carry just about anything you chose. this assumes your workplace allows CC, or if you must keep your CCW in a vehicle or other secure area. This compliance is a personal decision you must make and is very important with possible severe consequences.

Your threat environment is not so good. You live in Detroit, MI. A quick Google of crime rates of U.S. cities shows Detroit to be the #1 most dangerous large city and #2 overall most dangerous city in the country.

The reason you want a CCW to begin with makes a significant difference in what you chose. CC is a lifestyle in itself and will alter the way you conduct yourself and your outlook and interactions with other people. It is sometimes a real inconvenience and at best it requires an extra effort every time you walk out the door. There are various levels of CC ranging from occasional carry to 24/7 and you need to try and define your level of commitment before you make a weapon/s choice.

The real deciding factor will be your commitment to training with your selected weapon/s. This is just like everything else in life, you don't get something for nothing. The more capability you require the more time and expense will be involved. Revolvers are generally simple to operate and have a basic manual of arms. A quality revolver with quality ammunition will be dependable and reliable with a minimum of maintenance and you can gain and maintain proficiency with a fairly light training schedule. An autoloader is more complex and has a much steeper learning curve with an extensive manual of arms that must be mastered and practiced and requires more maintenance to achieve a high level of reliably.

Now, what to carry? And back to your first question? Is the .38 spl enough gun? Yes and no. I carry a 642 as my 24/7 CCW. I have a low threat environment. I have many years of training and conditioning. The great thing about a small snub is that you can have it with you always. But.......

If I lived in Detroit I would still carry a 642, as a BU and an always gun. I also would carry or a least have available a high cap DA .40 or better autoloader within arms reach at all times.

Looks like you have received a lot of good info here today. Some of the best I've seen from folks who know, So.....Whatch you gonna do?

 

[Nightcrawler]

You know what I like about a J-Frame? I don't have to dress around the gun. All I need is the gun; a $10.00 Uncle Mike's pocket holster helps break up the outline and keep the gun oriented, but I made do without one before I purchased it. (Ask Correia about my tactical sock holster. )

I can wear a t-shirt and jeans and carry the snubby. I can wear shorts and carry the snubby. I can wear a hooded sweatshirt and have the snubby in the front pocket. I can wear 5.11 pants and put the snubby in the back pocket. I can tuck my shirt in; no cover garment is required.

Most automatics, even "subcompacts", are too big for practical pocket carry. Those that aren't too big are shaped wrong; automatics have a rearward sweeping tang that can snag; a hammerless snubby doesn't. Unless you've got some big pockets, most autos are impractical for pocket carry.

If pocket carry is off the table, then you need a holster. You also need a cover garment. You can get one of those inside-the-waistband holsters that you tuck your shirt over, but you're impeding access to the weapon.

A snubby is a compromise weapon, and one of the most difficult ones to master. But when used with sufficient practice and consideration given to its limitations, it'll serve you well.

 

[kashton]

This may seem like a silly question, but where do you carry the speedloaders for the J-frame? I imagine just leaving it in the opposite side pocket of my jeans would make it difficult to get to, it would also get lint on / in between the bullets. Is there any other way to carry it?

 

[RNB65]

I carry a Mod 60 sometimes, but if I ever had to use it I doubt I would be able to hit anything with it. I'm far more accurate with a sub-compact semi than with a J frame.

 

[trader vic]

J Frame

For every day carry the S&W model 60 is a great choice, easy to conceal, mild recoil with the right load. Put some crimson trace laser grips on it & you are set for personal defense with the right load. The age old question, is it enough gun? Probably yes but sometimes maybe not! You'll never know until you are in that situation. They are all different. Personally I feel well armed with mine. NRA PATRON LIFE MEMBER

 

[BoneDigger]

I find myself carrying the 642 J-frame more and more as the weather turns hot. They are easy to conceal, and plenty firepower when using +P ammo. I carry a HKS speedloader in a Desantis Second Six case, and it rides on the hip very well. I don't even know it's there, but it's easy to get to and does it's job.

I feel that 5 shots will probably be anough if I ever need a gun (God forbide, I hope it never happens). But, if the situation arises, I feel perfectly well armed.

Todd

 

[Nightcrawler]

I carry a Bianchi speed strip, usually in that little watch pocket most jeans have on the right side. I can reach it with my left hand; if you're a righty, that's a great place for it.

I have an HKS speedloader for my 642, but I don't carry it much.

 

[scubie02]

well, for me the niche of the j frame is for those times when you can't wear a belt gun. I probably wouldn't wear a j frame in a belt holster since if I can conceal the belt holster and am going to be wearing a cover garment anyway, then I could just carry my regular carry guns as well (generally a commander sized 1911). The j frame for me is that gun that I can usually stick in a pocket holster and dump in my front pocket or shorts or whatever, or occasionally wear in an ankle holster. For me it definitely has it's place. I have both 38's and a 6 shot 32 H&R mag that they made for awhile.

I recently got a Kahr PM 9 because I always heard that they were a far superior option to a j frame, but I have to say after my first trip to the range and having one in person, I'm somewhat ho-hum. Now granted this is based on one range session and 100 rds, but I didn't appear to shoot it any better than a j frame. This may change with more practice with it and it may be capable of better than I was getting, but it's not the natural shooter and a subcompact XD is, probably because of the small grip and different sights, I dunno. And while flatter it is definitely NOT as good for dumping in a front pocket as my 642. It might do fine in an ankle holster.

A j frame should be in anybody's collection

 

[Nightcrawler]

I agree with the above. I carry my 642 when I can't carry a real gun. If I need a gunbelt, a holster, and a speedloader pouch, make mine an N-Frame.

 

[03Shadowbob]

That J frame is plenty gun and will do it's job if you do yours. It does take lots of practice to get proficient with one, including reloading it under stress, etc..
I personally went with a P3AT with extension so I had a few more shots in case they are needed. I don't think you should feel under-gunned with a .38. The .38 has proven itself to be lethal over the last 70 or 80 years or whatever and unless evolution has given humans thicker skin and denser bone structure over those said years, it remains just as lethal.

 

[OpFlash]

However, with an autoloader you give some things up, such as reliability (you know with a J-frame that you get 5 shots without question), and you also have less ease of carrying.

While true for a long while, I think today this is outdated thinking. A proven semi-auto like a Glock is even more reliable than a revolver IMHO. A revolver can be stopped by a small pebble getting lodged against between the cylinder and the frame, and the timing mechanism is more delicate than the moving parts of a well designed modern semi-auto. Don't get me wrong, both are extremely reliable when maintained at a minimum level, but I think the days of revolver superiority in this area are over.

I would also recommend the Bresa Thunder Concealed Carry for a very easy to conceal extremely reliable handgun that will hold 8+1 rounds of .380. I know its a little step down in power but what you gain in accuracy, controllability and capacity may very well make up for it. I don't know why most people compare 38 special to 9mm when it is closer to .380 in power.



OVERALL LENGTH: 6"
HEIGHT: 4.54"
WIDTH: 1.05"
BARREL LENGTH: 3.2"
WEIGHT: 16.4 oz without magazine

http://www.gunblast.com/images/Bersa_380CC/Bersa_380CC.mpg

 

[christcorp]

Some really great advice here. Well, except for the comment; "Unless the J-Frame is your only option, the revolver is an obsolete museum piece. There are far better guns to trust your life with". Revolvers by nature are more "Trustworthy" for your life than a sem-auto. Don't get me wrong; my favorite gun to carry and shoot is my SigSauer P220 45acp. Arguably one of the best semi-auto's available in the entire world. But with any Semi-auto, you take a risk of it jamming, stovepiping, not feeding properly, etc...

Then there's the "Oh-****" factor when you heart is beating crazy. Your breathing is on the verge of hyperventilating. Where whether you want to admit it or not, you are scared. Then you have to remember; "Did I jack a round in the chamber"? "Is the safety on"? Along side with all the other questions that race through your mind. A semi-auto is a very distracting gun for the average person. No, the revolver isn't obsolete or a museum piece. For the average person, the revolver is the better choice. For those who's egos think they are Bruce Willis or Steven Segal and think that life is Hollywood and they are single handedly going to take on 10 bad guys and save their neighborhood, nothing anyone says will matter to these folks. They will walk around with their semi-auto and probably 5 clips. Probably with a 380 BU on their ankle and another one in the glove box. That's OK. Most of us on this forum are guys, and it's a testosterone thing.

But, as many have already said, it also depends on your environment. I've lived in the largest cities, and I've lived in rural America. Where I live now, it is a very low crime environment. Most bad guys don't break into your house because the majority of people have guns and the bad guys know they will be shot. Plus, we don't need any types of permits for guns. Other than a CCW. Then again, it is not uncommon to carry a sidearm on you not concealed walking down the street. As well as a rifle in your vehicle and/or maybe a handgun in the glove box. Not really for bad guys, but more for nature. "Deer hit by a car", "coyote", just to plink, etc...

Concerning the original question, yes a 38spl is quite fine for self defense. The "J" frame can also be fine for that purpose. It is a very small and light frame design. But, unless you really needed something that small, I would personally look towards a "K" frame if possible. It's easier to shoot. More accurate. You can get a 357 mag that still allows you to shoot 38spl, but with the option later on should you need more power or just become for proficient with it. There's some really nice 2-3 inch models out there. Good luck. Later... mike....

P.S. When considering "Newer" semi-autos are much more reliable, you have to also remember that it very easy to make some very cheap semi-autos because people will buy them. Even a cheap revolver, will generally fire as needed. A bryco-jennings and similar semi-autos can't be trusted to even keep the clip in let alone protect my life. Most people can't or don't want to pay for a SigSauer level of semi-auto or a S&W on the revolver side. But a cheap Rossi is still a very reliable revolver compared to a cheap semi