J-frame and laser grip carry, experiences?

[jmorris]

I thought we were talking about carry. If you want to target shoot put a 1.5-7 burris on it.

I still look at them like chrome valve covers on an engine, if you "think" it makes you faster it will, I guess. You have to ask yourself why they are not used in competition (where allowed) if they are better/faster than other options.

in any case if you put your faith in anything that has a battery you should use it often.

 

[M2 Carbine]

M2carbine, two questions, honest questions, no presumptions
(you shoot 'em a lot more than I do, lasers)

1) do YOU shoot better with laser in not-low light than you do with irons ?
2) do YOU shoot better with laser at 15 yards or less in low-light than you do with irons ?

"With a little practice a shooter can be more accurate and faster with the laser in low light than they are in daylight with iron sights (I am)."
I heard you (I think, maybe), but at at what distance ?
__________________

"1) do YOU shoot better with laser in not-low light than you do with irons ?"

Yes and no. It depends on what kind of shooting.
I am more accurate point shooting with the laser than I am point shooting without the laser. Without the laser I probably wouldn't hit this whole paper but a couple times. With the laser I can put all the shots in a smallish group with my right or weak (left) hand, shooting from the hip.





In daylight if I'm aiming normally with the iron sights or "aiming" with the laser (which I normally wouldn't do in daylight) I shoot almost identically.






"2) do YOU shoot better with laser at 15 yards or less in low-light than you do with irons"
What I call "low light" is when it's getting so dark that you can't hardly, or totally can't see the iron sights. (Like the girl shooting below.)
Personally, in low light, timed shooting against myself with night sights, I usually would get off 2 accurate shots using the laser before I get off the first, not as accurate shot, using the night sights.

This is the end of this girls first day of ever touching a gun. She also did very well shooting the S&W 38 J frame using the iron sights.




The laser is in it's element when it's dark enough that you can't use the iron sights. Then the laser dot stands out bright and clear.
You don't "look for the laser". You look at where you want to hit. When you light the laser you will automatically, quickly bring the dot to where you are looking.
This is why shooting the laser slows me down if there's too much daylight. I have to look for the laser dot and bring it on target. Way too slow.



"I heard you (I think, maybe), but at at what distance ?"
Any distance. From a couple yards to 52 yards.
52 yards. 38 S&W J Frame with Crimson Trace laser grips. Standing. Two hands. Low light, I had to wait until the next day to take the picture.





I'm not in love with these high price lasers and laser/lights. If there was a better tool I'd be using it.



.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Oh yeah, another thing. The laser can help us seniors out a little bit (I'm 73).
I tried shooting without my glasses.

 

[oldfool]

M2_C
You are a better hip shooter than most; I do not do that, other than just plinking fun, non-serious stuff, right or wrong. I can scare the hell out of a soda pop can at 15 yards, slow SA fire from hip, that's about my limit on that. At 3-7 yards in <3 seconds, I don't much worry about sight pictures anyway, no matter what sights are on the handgun.

Not convinced it's "for me", but I do appreciate your honest feed back.
We come here to talk guns, because we like to talk guns, but we also come here to learn from others.

Anybody "selling" Crimson Trace on any handgun I ever saw shooting one, didn't need a CT, and methinks were not really using it. They could put 'em in the same place, with or without, and just might not really notice if the battery went dead in the middle of the string.

I don't think I 'wait' on the sight picture, not for DA. Never felt a pressing need to shoot slow in DA, or for trigger staging; if they give you that much time to pause, ponder, and think about it all, cock the hammer; that's why they have thumb hammers on 'em. If you have that much time, cock it for single action; there is no such thing as a SA/AD, there is only such a thing as poor judgement, if you do that when you ought not do that. Don't lay it off on Sam Colt, he ain't the one who just scared you half to death, he died a long time ago, you did it to yourself.

"I shot on purpose, not by accident' - if you be scared enough to have an accident, you probably already had one in your underwear anyway (and, yeah, I might), and they will smell the truth anyway, get over it.

My personal interpretation of point shooting has minimal to do (if anything) with a sharp "sight picture" or front sight focus or a light point target; the gun 'should' not even line up with the sights the way I do DA 'fast' (if I bother to think about it, it is held way too low for that), but I guess it does line up.

so.. I duuno... I tried a CT as a substitute for technique on an LCP. Which any damn fool ought know is a sorry excuse for reason. That LCP I can hit with at poker table width, by sound or smell alone, no sights req'd, but I never will hit anything at more than 5 yards with it on purpose; not so with just everything at whatever distance.

so... I just might have to give a CT or similar another whirl on a legit "wear if/when worried about yourself" CCW gun.

and it's YOUR fault if it costs me $400-$500, M2 Carbine !
I hope you are happy about that :banghead:
(yo, half blind w/o my glasses on, too, but the good news is, if you shoot 357, half deaf is more than half good e'nuff)

PS
I do sort of wonder if those LaserMax (?) folks ever got their product to perform reliably (the ones that substitute for a guide rod in a 1911)
and why, if they did, not one revolver maker yet has been bright enough to bore a hole in a revolver barrel underlug, instead of that ridiculous, useless, crap rail or offset grip nonsense. Why would anybody with half a brain insist on putting any sight type so obviously off line bore, if they did not have to ??

 

[M2 Carbine]

PS
I do sort of wonder if those LaserMax (?) folks ever got their product to perform reliably (the ones that substitute for a guide rod in a 1911)

I haven't tried that one but I did buy the one for the rail.
Poor quality.
Poor design.
Shooting it on just a 22 and the laser came loose in the case.
Instead of LaserMax replacing it with a new one they just glued the laser back in place.
I gave it to a friend to play with the cats.

Not convinced it's "for me", but I do appreciate your honest feed back.

Mostly I don't try to influence anyone to buy or do anything. I won't even give my personal recommendation on any gun, sight, etc.

All I do is pass on personal experience, good or bad. And of course what works for me may not work for other people.

When I started experimenting with lasers they were really sad. I've got a bunch of those cheap lasers that are only good for playing with the cats.

Eventually I invested in a Crimson Trace for my 38 J Frames. Right away I saw this was the way to go in low light. Of course you still have to have enough light to identify the target, or have and be able to use a flashlight.

I don't think I 'wait' on the sight picture, not for DA.

One thing I do a lot of is up close fast DA (point) shooting. Mostly 5 yards to 7 yards. Mostly at a couple steel plates. When I get in the mood I'll shoot magazine after magazine at the steel as I randomly move. I have the timer set to start randomly between 3 and 5 seconds, so I can be anywhere between 5 and 7 yards when the timer starts.



My time is almost the same with or without the laser but the accuracy with the laser is at least twice as good as without the laser.
You don't actually "wait" for the laser, it's there as you shoot.
As you point the gun you are lighting the laser. With your eyes kept on the target the laser will be on the target also, probably not too far off center. With a little practice you will automatically move the laser dot to where you are looking as you pull the trigger.
Like any type of shooting it takes practice to get decent at it but the additional accuracy the laser gives you, in low light, is worth it.

Good luck if you get a CT. I've got six of them and another five Streamlight TLR-2 laser/lights. Best gun money I ever spent.

 

[skoro]

do the Crimson Trace laser grips lend any tactical value?

I've had the CT lasergrips on my 642 for 3+ years now. Get the laser adjusted for the point of impact at about 10 yards and you'll be good to go. They work very well in all but bright sunlight. I understand the new green lasers show up well even at noon on June 21st. But they're pricey.

 

[M2 Carbine]

I understand the new green lasers show up well even at noon on June 21st. But they're pricey.

I bought one a couple years ago to try out.
On a overcast day the laser dot could be seen at 100 yards.
Now it is in my junk box.

In Sunlight it still wasn't bright enough for instant recognition many times, so it caused me to be slower but accurate.

And at night it shined through the air like a bright Green flashlight beam, right back to me.
Unless the air is foggy or smoky the Red beam can not be seen at night.

The green laser did make for some accurate from the hip shooting though.

 

[skoro]

I'd call that durn fine shootin', with or without a laser.

 

[Strykervet]

Thanks all, think I've decided to go for it. She's tried the demos before in the store, doesn't think it would detract from her skills any, and she feels it may be beneficial due to her indvidual situation, needs, etc. Chances are if it is ever needed, it will be inside, dusk or dawn, and almost always 21' or less, and most likely much less. She has been trained to point shoot at real close range, so the laser should add to, and not take away from, her training.

Irons are great, but I think some of you that recommend to use irons have an illusion as to what happens in a gunfight, and in particular a very fast close range one. If you have the time to pull the pistol to bear and aim the sights, that alone can end most encounters. But what if you don't have the time? You've just trained day and night to use sights that now you cannot use, and in fact, a lot of times you can't even get the pistol outstretched, it has to be held next to your belly in order to prevent it from being snatched. What now? Also, with iron sights, you focus on the front sight, not the target, so it is a fundamentally flawed approach for CQB defense anyway, in my opinion.

My wife can use the irons just fine. At the range, she uses them quite often. She also sets up a close target and does point shoot drills (aim small, group small!). The addition of the laser will allow her to focus on the target as with point shooting, and the laser won't get in the way of the irons when she goes to focus on those. Just seems like a great idea for this particular situation. Now when we get 'em, we'll have to figure out how to incorporate them into the training, ie, what to do if they fail, when to use it and when not to, etc.

Thanks again!