K9 vs CS9 ?
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I'm wearing the K9 on my hip right now. Have been for 4 years. It is very accurate considering it's short barrel. It has never once had a FTF/FTE ever. I shoot it monthly, just to rotate the ammo, and to ensure functioning. The workmanship on my K9 elite 98 is top notch, although there were posts/pics on tfl of more recent probs with finish and function. Because it is striker fired, the only safety you need is between your ears. The trigger is very smooth and can only be compared to your favorite squirtgun when you were a kid. It draws from an OWB and IWB holster quickly. Downside is the weight, but you get used to it. Another is the Hogue grips, which are great for the range, but can print on some clothes and may get caught during a draw. I replaced mine with the older plastic grips, which alas, are no longer available through Kahr. Upside is they have decent wood grips for sale.
The CS9 is a quality piece as well, but I just never liked the slide safety. Possibly a good pistol in DAO.
The CS9 is a quality piece as well, but I just never liked the slide safety. Possibly a good pistol in DAO.
Mike Irwin
Member
Yes.
I love my K9. Accurate, easy to shoot fast and well, and ergonomically VERY pleasing. I can print very small groups with it very easily.
The CS9 has all the ergonomics of a brick applied to a 2x6. Because of that I can't shoot it worth a crap. The bore axis is too far above my hand, so recoil feels a lot worse than it should.
I love my K9. Accurate, easy to shoot fast and well, and ergonomically VERY pleasing. I can print very small groups with it very easily.
The CS9 has all the ergonomics of a brick applied to a 2x6. Because of that I can't shoot it worth a crap. The bore axis is too far above my hand, so recoil feels a lot worse than it should.
tomkatz
Member
another vote for the kahr, I've got a k9 and it's been flawless...tom
I looked at the CS9, before I bought a Kahr.
The CS9 was too blocky for me.
The grip seemed wider and deeper.
Just wasn't a good fit for my hand.
I ended up with a Kahr MK9. All of the Kahr series fit me much better than most guns.
I have a PM9 now.
The CS9 was too blocky for me.
The grip seemed wider and deeper.
Just wasn't a good fit for my hand.
I ended up with a Kahr MK9. All of the Kahr series fit me much better than most guns.
I have a PM9 now.
triggertime
Member
You'd have to decide if you'd rather live with the top round in the Kahr magazines spontaneously popping out, be it in the magazine carrier, the pocket or even during a tactical reload, or if you'd rather live with the blocky feel of the CS9 and its magazine disconnect safety that renders the gun inoperable during magazine changes.
Neither of the aforementioned 'design features' are desirable on a carry gun that you depend your life on. But that's just my opinion, YMMV.
Neither of the aforementioned 'design features' are desirable on a carry gun that you depend your life on. But that's just my opinion, YMMV.
Mike Irwin
Member
"You'd have to decide if you'd rather live with the top round in the Kahr magazines spontaneously popping out..."
Please explain.
I have over 1,000 rounds through mine, with a fair amount of carry time with the spare magazine in a fanny pack, and this has never happened to me.
Please explain.
I have over 1,000 rounds through mine, with a fair amount of carry time with the spare magazine in a fanny pack, and this has never happened to me.
triggertime
Member
Simple. The top two rounds are not held securely in place in some magazines and have a tendency to wander forward enough to pop out of the magazine during normal daily activity.
Oleg has experienced this problem.
In addition to that, I have experienced the top round in the magazine (that's in the gun) moving forward just enough that when a partially loaded magazine is removed to perform a tactical reload, a loose round drops from the magazine well.
If this hasn't happened to you, then you may have magazines that Kahr has not deemed 'defective'.
Don't get me wrong, I really liked the K9/P9 until I encountered these problems.
Mike Irwin
Member
Trigger,
That's the first I've ever heard of this. Interesting.
That's the first I've ever heard of this. Interesting.
PCRCCW
Member
Ive shot owned borrowed stolen pleaded for etc...Kahrs for years...over 4 K40's in my immediate family alone.....many many other guns owned by friends.....and Ive never heard of this problem. Kahr borrowed S&W's single stack design and maker just for the reliability factor that existed as such.....I feel it was a good decision on Kahrs part.....
The CS is a great little gun if your hand fits it....I like the 3913 alot better and offers what I want in a carry over the little CS....
Shoot well
The CS is a great little gun if your hand fits it....I like the 3913 alot better and offers what I want in a carry over the little CS....
Shoot well
CS9 undercover in the UK
According to this thread (about 1/2 down):
http://www.smith-wessonforum.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/000588.html
The CS9 was adopted this year by some UK services as a concealed weapon. Not sure what that says about the weapon but it was thorougly evaluated and chosen.
According to this thread (about 1/2 down):
http://www.smith-wessonforum.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/000588.html
The CS9 was adopted this year by some UK services as a concealed weapon. Not sure what that says about the weapon but it was thorougly evaluated and chosen.
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tomkatz
Member
I prefer the slimness of the kahr but there is a definate contingent that likes the smith. If you search over at TFL you will find alot of info on the cs series, I remember a recent thread about them....tom
Kahr recent quality
The only thing that concerns me about Kahr is the quality problems I've read on TFL recently. It appears that recent Kahrs may not be living up to the quality standards of Kahrs of previous years.
I've read the CS9 quality is excellent.
The only thing that concerns me about Kahr is the quality problems I've read on TFL recently. It appears that recent Kahrs may not be living up to the quality standards of Kahrs of previous years.
I've read the CS9 quality is excellent.
duncan
Member
For a SW SA in 9mm, the 3913 Tactical is about as good as it gets.
Scratch the CS, they are bricks and out of more than 15 gun stores I regularly frequent, I have not seen one new or used in maybe three years. But see dozens of 3913, 1076s, and the like.
For a CCW gun of 9mm ilk, Kahr. Owned an E9 and stupdily traded it away.
denfoote
Member
Mike,
The round pop thing happened to me also when I first got the gun. Now that the mag springs have had a chance to set in, (read: I left rounds in the affected mags for a month!!) the problem has disappeared!! All of the Kahr springs seem to have been "over engineered"!!!
The round pop thing happened to me also when I first got the gun. Now that the mag springs have had a chance to set in, (read: I left rounds in the affected mags for a month!!) the problem has disappeared!! All of the Kahr springs seem to have been "over engineered"!!!
I don't deny that the "round pop out" thing happens, but searching Kahr threads on several forums, I don't think it is a wide spread problem.
I've left spare mags loaded for weeks. Never lost a round.
S&W does have some experience in that area though.
I had heard that Sigma mags would do that, then I witnessed it.
I was at a gunshop, and two local LE were there.
One unloaded and cleared his sidearm, and handed it to the guy behind the counter.
Then he took out his two spare mags.
Then he dug around in the bottom of the mag pouch and pulled out extra rounds.
When his partner asked what he was doing, he explained that a couple of bullets always squirted out of his spare mags.
I've left spare mags loaded for weeks. Never lost a round.
S&W does have some experience in that area though.
I had heard that Sigma mags would do that, then I witnessed it.
I was at a gunshop, and two local LE were there.
One unloaded and cleared his sidearm, and handed it to the guy behind the counter.
Then he took out his two spare mags.
Then he dug around in the bottom of the mag pouch and pulled out extra rounds.
When his partner asked what he was doing, he explained that a couple of bullets always squirted out of his spare mags.
fastbolt
Member
Both weapons seem rather well made, based upon handling and examining them ... My personal experience with the Kahrs is rather limited. Only a couple of our folks have bought them for off duty weapons, and we seldom see them as weapons of choice for CCW folks in our county ...
One of the ones used for off duty was an early blued 9mm, and it just wouldn't reliably return to battery ... as often as once every couple of magazines when I watched the shooter. The recoil spring was certainly strong enough. As a matter of fact, it was so strong the "smaller statured" shooter experienced problems retracting the slide to load it. The shooter's grip strength might've contributed to the observed problems, as well. Some minor work by one of the other armorers, and ordering a slightly lighter recoil spring, appeared to resolve the problem. The other shooter has a .40, and he required a heavier recoil spring before he was satisfied enough to carry it ...
Regarding the top rounds "popping out" ... This isn't restricted to any particular make or model of pistol, if it's the result of either improperly performed "press checking", or very slowly manipulating the slide to strip the first round from a magazine, and "easing" the slide forward.
I've watched it occur repeatedly with folks in both instances. Performing a "press check" with a very slow and extended slide manipulation can easily displace the top round forward as the slide is returning to battery, as the coefficient of friction (between slide stipper rail & top round) is increased during the slower forward movement. This generally doesn't occur during shooting, as the slide velocity "lessens", or overcomes the friction between these surfaces (unless there are problems with the magazine lips and magazine spring strength, of course). When shooting the pistol, recoil generally returns the round to the rear sufficiently to strip, feed and chamber it during shooting, although it might simply fall out if the magazine is first removed to top off ...
I warned one shooter against performing his version of a press check once, as he was retracting the slide almost an inch to the rear, and very slowly and gingerly pushing it forward to return it to battery. It immediately malfunctioned while feeding the second round during fire both times he did so ... He couldn't understand why it occurred, and couldn't believe I'd warned him beforehand it was likely about to occur, each time ... Oh well ...
It doesn't have to be done by retracting the slide very far, and there's nothing that says you can't remove the magazine and tap the top round firmly to the rear after doing a press check ...
Chambering the first round by "helping ease" the slide forward while stripping the top round, feeding and chambering it can accomplish the same displacement of the "next" top round in the magazine, as well ... and I've had some extra power magazine springs increase the "upward pressure" enough to increase the "friction", as it were, of the top round against the slide's stripper rail ... and cause the same effect. Once the springs "broke in" this tendency disappeared.
I've watched a LOT of rounds fired through both 3913's & CS9's. I own both. I'm very satisfied with the CS9. It "feels" less comfortable in my hand, but I can easily equal, and often exceed, how accurately I can shoot it compared to my 3913. Ugly little pistol ... but VERY reliable and accurate. The shooter must adapt to the heavier DA trigger stroke, though, which is the result of the shortest hammer spring used in the S&W pistol line up, necessitated by the short grip height.
I'd think the personal choice between DAO and DA/SA would have a lot to do with whichever design is selected ...
One of the ones used for off duty was an early blued 9mm, and it just wouldn't reliably return to battery ... as often as once every couple of magazines when I watched the shooter. The recoil spring was certainly strong enough. As a matter of fact, it was so strong the "smaller statured" shooter experienced problems retracting the slide to load it. The shooter's grip strength might've contributed to the observed problems, as well. Some minor work by one of the other armorers, and ordering a slightly lighter recoil spring, appeared to resolve the problem. The other shooter has a .40, and he required a heavier recoil spring before he was satisfied enough to carry it ...
Regarding the top rounds "popping out" ... This isn't restricted to any particular make or model of pistol, if it's the result of either improperly performed "press checking", or very slowly manipulating the slide to strip the first round from a magazine, and "easing" the slide forward.
I've watched it occur repeatedly with folks in both instances. Performing a "press check" with a very slow and extended slide manipulation can easily displace the top round forward as the slide is returning to battery, as the coefficient of friction (between slide stipper rail & top round) is increased during the slower forward movement. This generally doesn't occur during shooting, as the slide velocity "lessens", or overcomes the friction between these surfaces (unless there are problems with the magazine lips and magazine spring strength, of course). When shooting the pistol, recoil generally returns the round to the rear sufficiently to strip, feed and chamber it during shooting, although it might simply fall out if the magazine is first removed to top off ...
I warned one shooter against performing his version of a press check once, as he was retracting the slide almost an inch to the rear, and very slowly and gingerly pushing it forward to return it to battery. It immediately malfunctioned while feeding the second round during fire both times he did so ... He couldn't understand why it occurred, and couldn't believe I'd warned him beforehand it was likely about to occur, each time ... Oh well ...
It doesn't have to be done by retracting the slide very far, and there's nothing that says you can't remove the magazine and tap the top round firmly to the rear after doing a press check ...
Chambering the first round by "helping ease" the slide forward while stripping the top round, feeding and chambering it can accomplish the same displacement of the "next" top round in the magazine, as well ... and I've had some extra power magazine springs increase the "upward pressure" enough to increase the "friction", as it were, of the top round against the slide's stripper rail ... and cause the same effect. Once the springs "broke in" this tendency disappeared.
I've watched a LOT of rounds fired through both 3913's & CS9's. I own both. I'm very satisfied with the CS9. It "feels" less comfortable in my hand, but I can easily equal, and often exceed, how accurately I can shoot it compared to my 3913. Ugly little pistol ... but VERY reliable and accurate. The shooter must adapt to the heavier DA trigger stroke, though, which is the result of the shortest hammer spring used in the S&W pistol line up, necessitated by the short grip height.
I'd think the personal choice between DAO and DA/SA would have a lot to do with whichever design is selected ...
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12 Volt Man
Member
I have owned a Kahr K9 (affectionately named Rover) for 2 years, for me it is the most accurate gun of it's size available. Very well built, good concealable size, great trigger.
I am glad I picked one up. I have not had any experience with the CS9.
:ar15:
I am glad I picked one up. I have not had any experience with the CS9.
:ar15:
JY-
Member
CS9 at the range after 250 rds.
NINEX19
Member
I really like my CS9. I am not sure about the description of it being like a "brick" though. It seems to fit my hand very well. Also, I do not feel the recoil is any worse than any other gun of the same caliber and size (or even a little larger).
It is always best to make a decision after you have the oportunity to test all of your options.
Do a search on TFL. Here are a few links re CS9.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=129633&highlight=cs9
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=131595&highlight=cs9
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=138198&highlight=cs9
It is always best to make a decision after you have the oportunity to test all of your options.
Do a search on TFL. Here are a few links re CS9.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=129633&highlight=cs9
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=131595&highlight=cs9
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=138198&highlight=cs9
Robert Farrar
Member
Fastbolt,
MANY thanks for your explanation of "##ssying" the slide while chambering the first round and while press checking. A buddy of mine insists upon chambering the first round in his S&W 59 that way every time; even though I've explained to him many times that it won't hurt his pistol to do it correctly, and, that each time he fires it, the self loading feature does the same as pulling the slide all the way back and releasing. He has jammed his pistol many times (too many movie scenes may contribute here...).
Then again, I know guys that WILL NOT dry fire ANY gun but WILL leave their 1911's at half cock.
Bob
MANY thanks for your explanation of "##ssying" the slide while chambering the first round and while press checking. A buddy of mine insists upon chambering the first round in his S&W 59 that way every time; even though I've explained to him many times that it won't hurt his pistol to do it correctly, and, that each time he fires it, the self loading feature does the same as pulling the slide all the way back and releasing. He has jammed his pistol many times (too many movie scenes may contribute here...).
Then again, I know guys that WILL NOT dry fire ANY gun but WILL leave their 1911's at half cock.
Bob
fastbolt
Member
Robert,
Yeah, I know what you mean about some folks and their preferred manner of chambering the first round. I swear, some of them must be afraid they'll "startle" the round by simply releasing the slide stop, or releasing the slide in a "slingshot" motion, and allowing the recoil spring to do its intended job ...
More than a few times I've reminded a few of our folks how to load the first round in the manner we recommend ... (these are the folks that only reload their pistols twice a year, after qualification, so they sometimes require a little hint) ... and then watched them disregard the advice and sloooooowly ease the slide to the rear, so as to sneak up on the round, I'm guessing, as they're tipping the pistol so they can see into the ejection port ... and then slooooooowly "help" the slide go forward, primarily because they've done it so slowly that the extractor is now trying to slip over the case rim in an "out of time" fashion, after the round has already been released by the magazine lips, compared to how the design engineers actually intended ... and then stare at the resulting feeding malfunction completely stupified ... and then stare at me like it's somehow my fault that they did it differently than originally taught. It's amazing how many malfunction clearance opportunities you can work into a regular qualification range when some shooters do these things. Even with hardball ... and then have to remediate basic loading/unloading ...
Some folks just aren't interested in retaining any firearms training, no matter how basic.
My earlier thoughts weren't offered as a complete explanation for the "loose round" phenomena, naturally, as there are other issues and conditions that can also be involved ... like a rough, or burred, stripper rail which interferes with the proper "timing" of the round being held and stripped from the magazine lips during the recoil/counter recoil cycle ... or some sort of debris lodged between the follower and the inside of the magazine body. Sand is good for this ... or inserting a magazine during a "tactical reload", after it had been dropped and the top couple of rounds became "tumbled". This can happen with double column magazines ...
I just wanted to mention a couple of the more common shooter-induced methods of creating a loosened or displaced top round.
Stay safe ...
fb
Yeah, I know what you mean about some folks and their preferred manner of chambering the first round. I swear, some of them must be afraid they'll "startle" the round by simply releasing the slide stop, or releasing the slide in a "slingshot" motion, and allowing the recoil spring to do its intended job ...
More than a few times I've reminded a few of our folks how to load the first round in the manner we recommend ... (these are the folks that only reload their pistols twice a year, after qualification, so they sometimes require a little hint) ... and then watched them disregard the advice and sloooooowly ease the slide to the rear, so as to sneak up on the round, I'm guessing, as they're tipping the pistol so they can see into the ejection port ... and then slooooooowly "help" the slide go forward, primarily because they've done it so slowly that the extractor is now trying to slip over the case rim in an "out of time" fashion, after the round has already been released by the magazine lips, compared to how the design engineers actually intended ... and then stare at the resulting feeding malfunction completely stupified ... and then stare at me like it's somehow my fault that they did it differently than originally taught. It's amazing how many malfunction clearance opportunities you can work into a regular qualification range when some shooters do these things. Even with hardball ... and then have to remediate basic loading/unloading ...
Some folks just aren't interested in retaining any firearms training, no matter how basic.
My earlier thoughts weren't offered as a complete explanation for the "loose round" phenomena, naturally, as there are other issues and conditions that can also be involved ... like a rough, or burred, stripper rail which interferes with the proper "timing" of the round being held and stripped from the magazine lips during the recoil/counter recoil cycle ... or some sort of debris lodged between the follower and the inside of the magazine body. Sand is good for this ... or inserting a magazine during a "tactical reload", after it had been dropped and the top couple of rounds became "tumbled". This can happen with double column magazines ...
I just wanted to mention a couple of the more common shooter-induced methods of creating a loosened or displaced top round.
Stay safe ...
fb
stellarpod
Member
Triggertime states:
I've owned a Kahr P9 for a couple of years. I've experienced this problem with my spare mag on a few occasions. But, it seems to have subsided. I've never experienced the problem with a loose round falling out of the weapon during a tactical reload.
I now carry a K40 Covert. I would recommend both the P9 and the K40 Covert without reservation. I don't think you'll find a finer balance between conceilability, fit, finish and ergonomics in any other full-caliber auto.
stellarpod
I've owned a Kahr P9 for a couple of years. I've experienced this problem with my spare mag on a few occasions. But, it seems to have subsided. I've never experienced the problem with a loose round falling out of the weapon during a tactical reload.
I now carry a K40 Covert. I would recommend both the P9 and the K40 Covert without reservation. I don't think you'll find a finer balance between conceilability, fit, finish and ergonomics in any other full-caliber auto.
stellarpod
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