Kaboom!!!

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fallout mike

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My best friend brought his M1 carbine to me and left it. I was going to get it sighted in and work up a hand load for him. He works out of town for months at a time so I do this for him for nothing just bc he is my best friend. He had never shot this gun. I was shooting aguila ammo trying to sight the irons in. It was not cycling well, stove piping the next round and light primer strikes. On the 12th round I thought I was heading to the ER. It blew the magizine spring and rounds through the magazine floor plate and bulged the magazine. My hand was lightly on the magazine and I got powder burns and my pinky is massively swollen now. It blew a chunk of wood off behind the receiver that hit me in the forehead. Powder burns and bits of something all over my forehead and lightly embedded in my forehead. Something apparently hit my lower lip bc it was bleeding profusely from a cut on the outside. My eyes and ears are always on so that was no issue. The report sounded much different as well. I'm not gonna lie, it scared the holy crap outta me. My hand felt like it was blown off. It's a universal by the way. Anyone else had this happen? Any ideas what could have gone wrong? I can post pics after I feel a bit better. My forehead is still on fire and my pinky is iced down right now.
 
I really don't know. I googled it and it looks like this is not uncommon with this crap gun. Maybe it wasn't fully in battery and fired?
 
Unlocked breech ignition and/or a cartridge case failure blowout would be consistent with the circumstances described. There are other possibilities.

Glad to hear you were wearing suitable PPE and came out relatively unscathed.
 
fallout mike
Contributing Member

Join Date: January 26, 2011
Location: North Mississippi
Posts: 1,536 I've always wanted one of these. Now I don't!


Why?

IIRC, over 6 million were made, if unsafe per se, they would not have the great reputation for safety they do.
 
I've heard that the later Universal carbines were notorious for firing out of battery with nasty results. Sounds like that's exactly what happened to you!

No wonder those in the know always recommend staying far away from later Universals. The early ones were supposedly made out of surplus USGI parts and are reputed to be OK. It's the later ones where they made their own parts that are the dangerous ones.

Oh, FWIW - as I understand it, this is only the late Universals. All the USGI makes from WWII, the Plainfields, the new Auto Orndance models, Iver Johnsons, other commercial makes, and the early Universals are supposedly all fine. I have an Inland, an IBM, and a Plainfield, and they're all dandy shooters.
 
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"Maybe it wasn't fully in battery and fired?"
I would submit this is almost certainly what happened. Does anyone know if a squib-load-followed-by-real-load in 30 carbine is enough to blow the gun apart so dramatically? I didn't think it was anywhere near energetic enough for that. I'm admittedly not knowledgeable enough of the Carbine to know what kind of gas-handling or out of battery safeties they possess, if any.

So it's either out of battery rupture or the rounds had a mixture of RDX and blank-powder in them. It's entirely possible something was hanging up in the firing pin (or it was broken) which was causing the light strikes until the stars aligned and wedged the pin into a protruding position.

Glad to hear you're okay (mostly), keep an eye on the shrapnel and your temperature to make sure you don't let an infection sneak up on you.

TCB
 
Palehorseman,

Universal wishes they had made and sold 6 million......There were 6million plus USGI carbines built, not near as many Carbines whose parts won't interchange and have different design features. For instance the late (and we are still talking 40 plus years ago) Universals had a weirdly constructed operating rod system with a cut out so one could see the ear of the bolt as it was cammed into and out of battery. Many had factory modifications for a scope mount in the left side of the receiver that crud blew out of when firing.

The only thing I thought was cool about them when I was a "ute" was that Universal offered them with Teflon coatings, I actually sort of liked the sickly green ones and the shiney black ones, then I got past 15 and got better.

Universal Carbine does not equal USGI carbine to most folks.......for a reason.

-kBob
 
fallout mike said:
He paid some guy less than $100 for it and he never fired a shot. I was shooting the ammo he brought me and this happened on the 12th shot.
It may not have avoided the KB in this case (according to what some here have said about the Universals), but I certainly would not have fired such a rifle without first doing a detail strip & careful inspection of that rifle ... as I do with almost all of my newly-acquired firearms.

I am glad that you were not hurt worse!
 
image.jpg

It doesn't appear to be unrepairable. Could have been much worse I'm sure. I googled "universal m1 carbine kaboom" and got many many hits with the same thing that happened with this one.
 
Any idea of what the brass looks like, and where the round went off at the exact wrong time?

It's all about forensics and determining from the evidence what is indicated. From that, a reasonable conclusion can be derived (rather than useless blame assignment just to make a poster get his ego fix.)

So, yes, pics would be nice. There are those here who could point out some things about the damage and what it indicates.

In a self loading rifle, there is a small discrete list of things that primarily cause kabooms. It's mostly about timing - the round goes off too early or late, leaving the case partially inserted (or extracted) and it fails. A double charge is another, some have pulled every bullet in the remaining ammo and weighed every charge.

Since you were experienced symptoms of stovepiping, it's indicated some loads may have been light, and others at full power. Which means, did a round get overcharged with what was stuck in the tube? Because of that symptom, it would be good research to find out with what is left of the ammo. Even if it's hundreds of rounds, because at this time it's suspect and not guiltless.

Why or how the action got out of time gets interesting. That's where pics will tell the story of what happened. The difficulty is that closeups are needed, many cameras don't macro well with focus ranges in inches. Digitals with lots of pixels can zoom up nicely thru image manipulation, tho.

Do the best you can and post.
 
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A. Paul, that's enough silliness for one day.

Absent disassembly and cleaning of the bolt and firing pin, it's possible that grunge inside the bolt caused light strikes, and then, possibly, a stuck and protruding firing pin. No way to know for sure, sitting here at a keyboard, of course. Just speculating.
 
I see no shooter error & I see no shooter responsibility.
Years ago I zeroed a cousin's rifle for him.
Using his rifle & his ammunition, at his request.
It didn't blow, but if it had he would not have expected me to buy him a new gun & I would not have even briefly entertained the thought that I owed him one.

Here, it seems Mike did nothing wrong & the fault lies with the gun.
Makes more sense to say either the gun's original makers, or the ammunition's makers, owe the buddy a "new" gun.
Denis
 
What I suspect is sensitive primers and an out of battery slamfire. This mechanism controls slamfires solely by primer sensitivity. If you were to look at primer sensitivity specs for the US military, the M1 carbine had the least sensitive primer of all the small arms. This was due to the heavy, round firing pin used in the carbine. The M1 Garand and M14, their firing pins were scalloped to reduce weight to minimize the risk of a slamfire. Since 30-06 and 308 ammunition was used in other weapon systems, making the primer less sensitive for the Garand/M14 would have caused misfires for the other weapon systems. This was not an issue for the Carbine, it was the first, and last of its class.

I will bet Aquila does not know this, primed the ammunition with standard small rifle primers, and guess what, your carbine is now ruined with their ammunition. In my opinion, Aquila owes you a rifle.

it's possible that grunge inside the bolt caused light strikes, and then, possibly, a stuck and protruding firing pin

Unlikely, all Garand type mechanisms have a firing pin retraction cam which positively cams the firing pin back. It does not prevent firing pin contact with the primer prior to cam down, which is why these mechanisms slamfire out of battery.

DSCN1375.jpg


DSCN1383FiringPinEngagingbridge.jpg

DSCN1386FiringPinCammedBack.jpg

DSCN1379ReceiverBridgeboltforward.jpg


Here are other examples of out of battery slamfires. Federal does not admit that their primers, the most sensitive primers on the market, were the root cause of the blow up of the first carbine in the list. You will find this denial all the time with Corporations, they will not admit fault and will lie and mislead, what ever it takes, to shift the blame.


You however, even though the ammunition was defective, you shot the rifle, and your friend is going to expect you to replace the rifle. You should try to get Aquila to replace the rifle, but, I expect, they won't. In which case, you and your friend will have to come to an accommodation.


Out of battery Slamfire in M1 Carbine with Federal American Eagle Ammunition.


http://www.thegunzone.com/ij-m1carbine_kb.html#nb2

I first found The Gun Zone while researching my new Glock 21. Yes, I am a Glock Fanatic, but I have to say that I do appreciate this site and I like to see that all points are covered. Nothing is perfect. End of story. To say otherwise is at best hyperbole. I'm still a Glock fanatic because I've had nothing but outstanding results with them. I'm also a 1911 Fanatic, and a S&W revolver fanatic1. I'm also a guy who like to have every scrap of information I can. Thank you for providing the other point of view.

Above are some photos of an Iver-Johnson M1 Carbine that self-destructed while my wife was shooting it. As kB!s go it was pretty mild. However I think there should be some kind of warning out there about these old carbines. Every one of them I've picked up will fire with a partially open bolt. This is not a problem until they get dirty or use bad ammo. On this day we were using brand new Federal American Eagle FMJ rounds. The bolt failed to close all the way and, well, kB!.

We had been having a nice family outing at the range. A friend, the actual owner of the carbine, brought along a few guns for my wife to try out to find something with which she could plink.

We had fired about 75 rounds from the carbine prior to my wife trying it. On her third round the gun emitted a small blast from the breech and blew a chunk of the stock off the right side. My wife and I got our faces full of assorted crap flying out of the gun, and received a few minor burns. Luckily no one was seriously hurt.

The bolt was blown apart and the stock split along the operating rod. I recovered as many parts as I could locate and packed up for the day.

I do not know the DOB of the Iver-Johnson other than it's a "50th Anniversary (1941-1991)" reproduction, so I'm going to guess it's probably very late '80s, early '90s.

The ammunition was American Eagle. No surprise there I'm sure. The rifle, remaining ammunition, and spent casings were sent to Federal for testing. Federal came to the conclusion that the failure was due to a malfunction of the Iver-Johnson2. The rifle did not close properly prior to the ignition of the cartridge. The casing showed no signs of an overpressure load.

After receiving the carbine back I was able to repair part of the damage with a new bolt, but I had trouble finding a replacement stock.

Even with the new bolt the carbine would still fire prior to full lockup. I've seen more than one M1 Carbine lately that will do that.

Iver-Johnson's demise prior to this incident left me with no ability to obtain comment from them.

The pictures are from two days after the event and show the damage to the gun from various angles. The owner took them prior to sending the carbine to Federal as a "CYA" measure.

The other photo shows the case that failed, a fired case from the same box, and an unfired cartridge, also from the same box


M1 Carbine out of battery slamfire
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=455111

Witnessed 'powder burn' at the range today
________________________________________
Yikes. Gentleman was renting an M1 carbine from the range store and the 15th round of PMC blew off the base sending unburned powder into his face. He came into the store a bloody mess.

Fortunately he was wearing safety glasses and the 'freckles' were just superficial. Scary to witness though.

They figured the gun fired out of battery somehow. We saw the case head and it had broken off about 3/8".
 
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fallout mike bears no financial liability. Owner's ammo. Not fm's handloads. It's up to the owner to deal with the ammo manufacturer--and under the circumstances, good luck with that.
 
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