KAHR: The Immaculate Concraption?

[Mad Magyar]

There is little doubt that Kahr is positioning itself to capture the lions-share of the CCW market. But, how? Starting with the pseudo Germanic name, Kahr has probably spent more of their total revenue on advertising than the other upstarts. You want proof? Look at the gun magazines & the write-ups; paid of course and much of the copy/slick pictures & range results provided by guess who? Do you actually think the gun writers compose the entire story line? All gun mfgr’s are monitoring, posting & responding on all these gun forums to influence the buyers. Econ 101 would tell you that glitzy advertising is the fastest way to transmit an idea & sell a product, even as ordinary as a Kahr pistol. Having examined & fired their CW9 & P9 and waiting for the P45, I can tell you there is not much to brag about. DAO with that long, hard trigger pull? With the streamlined, down-sized, snag-free, internal striker, MIM pistol, Kahr/CEO Moon have been able to lull the shooting public in thinking this is the way it’s going to be in the CCW mode. Please! If anything, they are adept in short-changing the pistolero in options as well as a quality built pistol. They are already at the point of “law of diminishing returns’ where each additional unit of downsizing will correspond with an equal measure of inefficiency. Case in point, the P45’s tight ejection port. Remember, you read it here first… BTW, the 200 rd break-in warning is nothing more than alerting those who still mistakenly think that a pistol is somewhat like an internal combustion engine. The reality is that they haven’t done a quality job knowing full well that the vast majority will not shoot 4 boxes of ammo in the short run. This lapse in time gives them a handle on complaints/returns in an orderly manner giving the false impression that their service is credible…On the plus side, Kahr proves again that salesmanship can be more powerful than an unnecessary, mediocre product.
BTW, I prefer some options with my handguns...

 

[Freddymac]

Econ 101 would tell you that glitzy advertising is the fastest way to transmit an idea & sell a product, even as ordinary as a Kahr pistol

In college I had a professor who was a retired ad exec. His favorite saying was, ”nothing will kill an inferior product faster than superior advertising”. When the Kahrs first came out I shot my friends quite a bit, they were excellent guns, they were also very pricey. I don’t own one, so I cant say for sure, but I have herd that quality has declined along with the price.

 

[James NM]

By all means, I think a total ban on all commercial advertising is in order. I can think of nothing worse than capitalist pigs trying to improve their market share by advertising!

 

[sabre2]

ksnahrl

If anything ever goes wrong with my moonie gun, I'll give those so&sos a piece of my mind!

 

[Soybomb]

There is little doubt that Kahr is positioning itself to capture the lions-share of the CCW market.

Thats a bet I'd take any day of the week. I would suspect they're quite low on the concealed firearms sales list. Lets get jimenez and hipoint out of the way first. Then you've got glock. I'd be surprised if kel-tec wasn't up there with their p3at sales numbers. I bet more 1911's are sold than kahrs. I haven't seen actual numbers but I don't see them poised to be a market leader. Their reputation about their quality seems to be quite well known and they don't have the brand recognition of what the local leo's are carrying despite all the advertising in the world. Interesting though.

 

[Sistema1927]

This has to be just about the most cynical thing I have read on THR.

Advertise? How dare they! Off with their heads.

Want some advertising? I am VERY pleased with the Kahr PM9 in my pocket. Not only am I not a "Kahr schill", I almost didn't buy one due to the "Moonie" connection. Since this was a self-defense weapon, I took the time to do the break-in (250 rounds of mixed 9mm ammo) and after the first magazine I didn't have a single failure. This PM9 now has over 1,000 rounds through it, and I trust my life to it. Maybe they aren't for everyone, but it certainly fits my needs.

 

[shermacman]

When the Kahrs first came out I shot my friends quite a bit,

Hmmmmm.....

There must be more to the story than that! Did you shoot all of your friends? Did you run out of ammo or run out of friends?

 

[Owen]

those are some shiney pants

 

[Dollar An Hour]

Wow, you really hate Kahr.

 

[fineredmist]

I have owned a KAHR P9 for 4 years and have fired a couple of thousand rounds through it and the ONLY time it even malfunctioned was with DEFECTIVE ammo. I have used mild hand loads and Ferderal +P+ and it handles them all with no problem. It is as reliable as my Glock 22 and reliability is the key in a defence weapon. The trigger is a bit different, just as is the Glock and YOU must accustom yourself to shooting it. If you carry it for protection you must be proficient with it and practice is the answer.
Do I really care if they spend big money on ads? No. Just build the product you advertise.

 

[Zundfolge]

There is little doubt that Kahr is positioning itself to capture the lions-share of the CCW market.

Thats a bet I'd take any day of the week.

Its a bet you'd loose.

The entire purpose of Kahr's existance is CCW guns ... now whether they will capture the lions-share of the CCW market is another thing, but they clearly are positioning themselves to do so.


I've owned two Kahrs, and MK40 Elite 98 (that I deeply regret selling) and my current EDC an MK9 Elite 98 and I've had nothing but good results with steel Kahrs (never touched a plastic one).

 

[MCgunner]

Just another 1911 preacher that can't handle a DA gun.

I looked at a Kahr when I bought my Kel Tec. It was pricey, the Kel Tec wasn't. I'm very happy with the KT, but probably would be with the Kahr, too. The trigger was a little light and short for my DA tastes, but it sure looked like a quality piece to me! For safety in carry, I prefer a true DA, not a "safe action" which the Kahr resembled in trigger to me. That and price drove me to Kel Tec. I bought that KT and a Taurus .38 for about what the one Kahr would have cost me.

BTW, was that picture taken on the way to a disco?????

 

[kirkcdl]

Long,hard,trigger pull?I admit,I sold my K40 due to the fact that the length of pull was too different than other CCW guns I own,but I got a P40,and the Elite trigger is perfect.You just don't like Kahr Arms?Big deal,then don't buy one...

 

[Lou22]

My PM9 has one of the sweetest DAO triggers I've encountered (my Taurus PT145 is the only one I've tried that is close). The PM9 has to be the most accurate and reliable DAO for concealed carry I've tried. I shoot groups at 21 feet that rival those of my SA Ruger P90. With about 700 rounds through it I have yet to see how well it wears. But for concealed carry my Kel-Tec P3AT is the only one easier to hide.

Lou

 

[UncleBob]

Been lurking for a little while now but I had to reply to this one. I've owned two Kahrs pistols. Had a P9 and currently own a P45. Never had a problem with either at any time. It amazes me how people complain about the trigger. It's no different than a revolver. It's like they have never shot a revolver before. The Kahr triggers are probably the smoothest DAO triggers around. It's also amazing how many experts we have that have only handled a Kahr maybe once or twice. To each their own. I like mine very much. They fill a niche just like any other style of handgun. I also own a Kimber, XD45 ACP, Taurus 38 spl, and a Rem 870. All my guns are for defense and I trust each one.

 

[Soybomb]

Its a bet you'd loose.

The entire purpose of Kahr's existance is CCW guns ... now whether they will capture the lions-share of the CCW market is another thing, but they clearly are positioning themselves to do so.

I'd love to be able to retire in 5 years. Based on current numbers however, that seems pretty unlikely. Even if thats what kahr wants, it doesn't mean its going to happen. Lets look at the 2004 atf's manufacturing numbers
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/stats/afmer/afmer2004.pdf

Kahr is SMI-MA and Saeilo. Unless I missed another listing for them, for 2004 they made less than 30k handguns. Kimber made nearly 45k, beretta 85k, s&w 78k, bryco 88k, keltec 60k (they made more of their .380 than kahr made period), beemiller (hipoint) 77k. Even if you take out kimber, beretta, and s&w and say those aren't for concealed carry and throw hipoint and bryco out as being non gun people guns, they have to double their sales just to catch up with kel-tec. Maybe I'm missing it, but I just don't see any forward momentum for kahr's product line nor do I hear people excited about new/upcoming products. If they were a publicly traded stock I wouldn't buy kahr. I don't see anything positive on the horizon to speculate on and I don't think they're the best of breed in any one area. If you give me a gun though I'd gladly shoot it

 

[Croyance]

People have beaten on the "long, hard trigger pull" line already, but what the hell, let's pile on.
First, have you ever fired a revolver? Even once without the hammer cocked?
I would say that the Kahrs and Para-Ordnance LDAs have the lightest and smoothest DA trigger pulls of any semi-auto. Beretta has a fine reputation for their DAO models, but they are definitely heavier (though smooth).
Not every gun is a Glock or 1911. It has been noted that Kahrs help revolver people transition well.
Speaking of Glock, many people say they bought their way into acceptance too.
That is no joke that a lot of advertising will kill a bad product. That is because of the sheer amount of dissapointed customers and the amount of noise they will quickly make.
What was said about Kahr reviews can be said about any gun that is reviewed in the major publications.

I have owned a Kahr and shot it extensively, since it was not only to be used for CCW but also because I was unfamiliar with the trigger. What exactly about the flawless preformance, accuracy, and good wear was supposed to tip me off that it was really a POS? The con must be a good one, because it has thousands of rounds through it. As a carry gun, it has been beaten up some. It misses some cleanings. But it always works. And puts a bullet where it is aimed.
Bastards.

 

[AStone]

I'm standing over here with Zund, Sistema and others.

I own a K9 Elite 98.

Love it.
Repeat: I love it.

It rides on my right side every night (at work).

It's never jammed.

Long pull? What long pull?
If it feels like a long pull,
you're pulling to slow.
Just squeeze the thing!

I knew the instant I picked it up it was my main handgun.
It fit my hand. The weight was substantial
(which tames that recoil to get that #2 pop off quickly).
The price was right.

YMMV, but IMO, marketing has little to do with it.
If the tool does what it's designed to do,
and it feels right, then buy it and use it
until/unless you find something better.

Shiny pants, indeed.
Those along with that "coat" and all that jewelry...sort of raise my eyebrows.
I'll take Carhartts anyday.

Nem

 

[XLMiguel]

There is no such thing as the perfect all-around handgun -

Marketing 101 - PR is used to create 'the buzz' (interest/awareness), advertising is used to sustain awareness. PR & advertising, along with real world pefomance, is what builds brand equity. That's how it works in a capitalist, free market economy. Marketing 101.1 - A happy customer will tell three of four people, an unhappy one will tell a dozen.

Kahrs are decent guns. The reason they can charge a premium price is because they do, in fact, perform. Kahrs are a niche product (CCW), they are not the be-all, end-all, nor are they for everyone. My P9 fits a niche in my self-defense requirements spectum, it has a sweet DAO trigger, I shoot it well, its realiable and accurate. It works for me, go with what works for you.

 

[Boats]

100% Solid Disco Snake, dude!

 

[RustyShackelford]

Kahr-Rev Sung Young Moon

I doubt I'd buy any products from Kahr. I heard that Kahr is owned by the group run by the Rev Sung Yong Moon(of the "Moonie" cult fame ). I'm not thrilled about my money going to support this guy or his causes.

Rusty

 

[UncleBob]

Choosing a gun based on politics or religion is rediculess. They don't mix.

 

[RyanM]

When the Kahrs first came out I shot my friends quite a bit,

Hmmmmm.....

There must be more to the story than that! Did you shoot all of your friends? Did you run out of ammo or run out of friends?

Man am I glad I wasn't drinking anything right when I read that. Almost ended up with cream soda all over my keyboard.

 

[Kor]

Ahem...

My current CCW is a stainless-steel Kahr K40 with Trijicons and smooth Hogue wood grips, carried in a Kydex IWB holster. I have owned this pistol since 1998, and have fired at least 1000 trouble-free rounds through the gun over the years.

Last weekend, I shot 247/250 with this gun on an AZ Peace Officer's Standards and Training(POST) LEO qualification. This timed 50-round course of fire mandates one-handed shooting, weak-hand-only shooting, speed reloads, and 25-yd shooting. I have shot 90th-percentile scores with this gun before, and can do so at any time on demand - from concealment.

Several years ago, I actually won an IDPA match with this gun - i.e. Overall Match Winner, not just 1st Place, Stock Service Pistol.

I would respectfully submit that a poorly-assembled, unergonomic, unreliable handgun of mediocre design would not allow this level of performance, and that therefore my Kahr K40 has none of these deficiencies.

I would also submit that one should not cast aspersions on another's choice of defensive weaponry unless one has the comparable skill and experience to support their opinions.

Finally, the only option I see being exercised in the attached picture is that of carrying a relatively large, heavy pistol with low-visibility sights, a non-ambidextrous safety, and a hammer that would bite my hand, in a potentially unsafe holster(crossdraw or shoulder) that makes it easier for an assailant to draw the gun than the wearer.

De gustibus non est disputandum...

 

[Croyance]

The Elites have shorter trigger pulls than the regular series. I'm not really a fan of Glock type short springy triggers, so it is fine with me.

There have been many reviews stating that, while Justin Moon (Kahr's head designer) is the son of Rev. Moon, there are no other connections.