Legality of stopping a 'perceived' dog attack

[Travis Lee]

I've seen the value of an "invisible fence".

They don't work.

A dog charges me, I shoot him.

A man charges me, waving a knife, he won't get out of his yard.

You set up a cannon on your front yard, aimed at my house, don't expect to get much mileage out of the "property rights" argument.

--Travis--

 

[txgho1911]

I have the Fence

This is a wired fence. Burried copper conductor jacketed with PVC. This one is #14 wire. A 24# would work as well. My dog will chase the bully black cat or unlucky twin long enough to figure out she is in a heap of trouble. She will be stuck outside the fence until I let her back through the garage. I don't do that anymore. She back accross the fence to get her medicine and she knows it now.
She will go back into the yard on her own to keep me from taking her accross to slowly. Or even to get away from anyone she doesn't know. Real brave mutt and I can prove it!

I think Cosmo you got your feathers ruffled and I cannot figure out how you got there. Maybe I am not reading everything you did. My fence is over 25' from the side walk. She charges the black cats and squirells. If she ever charged someone on the sidewalk on my yard or accross the street and is closer than say 20'. Then she goofed and I screwed the pooch for letting her. If she gets shot or stabbed outside of HER fence I will be sweating ice water because I know I will get some medicine out of this one.

 

[SalTx]

Having been in a similar situation..I shot and killed the dog and would advise anyone in anything similar do the same, especially if you have loved ones involved. I think working dogs are a good thing, but it's surprising that "reasonable" people here place an animal above a human. It's tough enough to get cleared for a good shoot of another human, much less because of "he shot my greater worth than a human dog".

 

[Cosmoline]

local law enforcement has stated several times on local news interviews that it is completely lawful to destroy an aggressive dog, and they urge all dogowners to keep their pets properly restrained.

Only if it's off its owner's property or you reasonably believe it's about to come off its property. No law in this state allows anyone to go onto someone else's property and kill their dog because they think it looked at them wrong.

One of the main reasons I like to keep dogs is as an early warning system. Part of that means if someone is in my place or on my property actively killing my dog, it gives me time to get the Mosin out and kill them first from concealment and cover. This has nothing to do with my feeling for the dog. Nor does it have to do with placing canine life over the man's. It's one of the main purposes of a guard dog--to buy me some time to get ready.

I would never rely on an electronic fence to keep dogs in. The stupid zoning and CC&R's in Anchorage that prohibit front yard fences are one reason I will never buy property in town. I like it out where I"m free to build ten foot fences topped with razor wire.

 

[Lupinus]

right cos so you'd kill a guy being attacked by your dog right infront of his two little girls just cause he is a few feet on your property so the dogs wouldn't get at his girls? A guy thats being attacked cause your mangey mutt likes to charge people on a sidewalk in a threatning manner giving them every reason to believe its going the attack?

Real great stance

Try that one, see what it does for property defense rights or your freedom

 

[Travis Lee]

And when your dog attacks the man, and his daughter...
and you finish him off with your rifle, 20 yards from your house,
you go right ahead and tell the police he violated your property, and you were in fear for your life.

This will be good; I'll get the popcorn so I can watch it on Court TV.

--Travis--

 

[Lupinus]

Im with ya travis.

Maybe we can sell tickets lol

 

[bamawrx]

I have two friends involved in K9 shootings. Both were very surprised at how the dog increased its attack once shot!

Keep in mind that you will not be able to effect psychological compliance on a dog, only neurological or physiological compliance with gun fire. They tend to bite at the bullet wound and rapidly ramp up the attack on you once hit.

All of us would be challanged to shoot two determined dogs to death while protecting two small children. May not be possible depending on breed, shot placement, capacity of weapon system, etc. That is a very dangerous scenario indeed.

 

[MechAg94]

The one thing I was thinking was that even if an invisible fence is working and is marked, if you put it 5 feet from the sidewalk, there is no way for the average pedestrian to know if the dog will stop until the dog is on them. That was my impression of the original account. 20 feet might be enough as you would be able to see the dog slow down before that.

It seems like at least 50% of agruments on sites like these are always crossed up. People who essentially agree, but charging off in opposite directions.

 

[silverlance]

no way in hell

would i trust an invisible fence with even MY OWN dog. most of these things have a "safety" feature that turns off the device after it has moved out of "green zone" more than 25 feet or so. that means that this thing is like pepper spray - real nasty, but you better have something else handy for when the guy doesn't go down screaming right away.

furthermore, any dog that makes it past the 25-ft/yd hurdle will realize that it can do so safely again.

I have TWO retaining barriers for my dog. One stucco iron gated wall, and then a steel wire fencing secured concrete interior wall. my dog would have to jump over a 5' then 6' wall to get outside. of course, any burgular would have to vault rose bushes, 6' wall, avoid motion alarm, avoid motion floodlights, not wake the dog, hop over a 5' wire fence, jimmy a wooden-dowel secured window, not trip the window alarm, and then avoid the three interior motion sensors and my insomniac roommate in order to catch me with my proverbial pants down =)

then, of course, they still need to batter down the door to my room.

after which i'll be bright-eyed and bushy tailed!

 

[SMMAssociates]

The one thing I was thinking was that even if an invisible fence is working and is marked, if you put it 5 feet from the sidewalk, there is no way for the average pedestrian to know if the dog will stop until the dog is on them. That was my impression of the original account. 20 feet might be enough as you would be able to see the dog slow down before that.

20' (21', actually) is the "magic" distance often quoted for a knife attack. Probably close enough for government work in this instance. The dog's likely to be a little faster, but has shorter legs . I don't think you could actually draw fast enough to hit the dog, but a weak-arm parry might give you a chance to get a couple into it, and a 1911 might be more than enough. IAC, I don't trust the invisible fence. In the case I mentioned, the dog just didn't have a vicious look - he could have been moving faster, or some such; more of a "feeling" on my part that resulted in taking a second to scan for the sign while reaching for the .380. He stopped well outside the "danger" range....

Regards,

 

[Cosmoline]

right cos so you'd kill a guy being attacked by your dog right infront of his two little girls just cause he is a few feet on your property so the dogs wouldn't get at his girls?

Lupinus, how many times do I have to tell you that's not what I'm talking about? Take a pill.

THERE ARE SEVERAL DIFFERENT ISSUES.

First of all, it's a bad idea legally and tactially to launch out on a counter attack with a knife against somebody's dog because you're afraid for your kids or yourself if doing so is going to mean you're running onto their property. As I've said about six times now if the police come and find you the dogs and the blood ALL ON HIS PROPERTY then your position is not good. It makes YOU the trespassing party and takes fault away from the dog. You want the blood, the dog and you on the road or sidewalk when the cops get there. Understand? That's one issue.

ISSUE TWO is the fact that a lot of folks with dogs, including myself, rely on them to be the early warning systems and if I saw someone ON MY LAND KILLING MY DOG I would assume he was a lethal threat to me and kill him. Of course my land is out in the sticks and as I said I would not rely on an electric fence. My point was simply that any notion that you are FREE TO KILL ANY DOG THAT SCARES YOU is not only legally wrong if you did it on the wrong property you'd be shot dead. You need to be careful about killing dogs that aren't on your personal property.

ISSUE THREE is the fact that using a knife against a charging guard dog is a last-ditch option almost sure to fail. The notion that if you "know where to stab" you'll be able to kill the dog like a ninja master is suicidal against a real guard dog. Your hand will be hamburger long before it reaches a vital area, and the thrust will expose your guts, neck, and privies to nasty counter attack.

Comprende usted?

 

[Travis Lee]

Got it, Cosmo.

Your dog charges my daughter at 30 MPH, and I should just trust that he'll stop at the very edge of the sidewalk...

I tell my daughter to run home and I engage your deranged canine....
and you'll take me out with aimed rifle fire from your bunker position.

Yeah.... I'll be dead.....

You'll go to prison.... And my family will own your house.

Somebody setting foot off the sidewalk does not give you carte blanche to shoot him. Comprende?



--Travis--

 

[Cosmoline]

You clearly DO NOT understand what I just told you, Travis. Read my post again slowly.

 

[deanf]

You guys slay me. Espicially you, Cosmoline.

If some yahoo is slashing at my dogs on my property

But going onto the property and hacking at the dog? No way.

But the guy who started the thread wasn't asking if it would be ok to attack the dogs with cuttlery. He was inquiring as to his legal standing if he had shot at the dogs if he had been carrying a gun.

Then there's this:

In a sense, any property owner should have the right to agressively defend his property all the way up to the property line.

So it's ok if'n I stand in my yard with my Mossberg 590 Mariner and draw a bead on everyone who walks by, as long as I stay within the property line? I'm agressively defending my property, after all. The answer of course, is no. You can't get agressive with a firearm against someone who's got a perfect legal right to be where they are. The dogs are no different than the gun. You can't maintain dogs to get agressive with every person who walks by your house, and then use the excuse "oh, they were just doing their job."

Again, I maintain that the "reasonable man" test applies in this case. How would a reasonable man respond to two dogs who he believed at the time were intent on causing serious bodily harm to him and his? Would it be reasonable for said man to judge the status of invisible fencing in a fraction of a second? Would it be reasonable to expect the man to act only while the dogs were in the small amount of space between the alleged property line and the young'uns? No, and no.

And I say "alleged" property line because it is very possible that the public right-of-way (the real estate that is owned by all that is reserved for streets and utilities) extends several feet onto what the homeowner considers "his" property. Perhaps into the invisible fence area. Maybe into the middle of the lawn or shrubbery.

 

[Cosmoline]

I'm sorry if I confused you. I wasn't making it clear enough that I'm talking about different hypothetical problems and concerns. I'm not attacking what Atticus did. He's fine as far as I can see, other than needing a sidearm.

Some of the responses seemed to indicate if a dog was barking at your kids you could go onto a stranger's property and kill it. Maybe I misread them. As I pointed out, this is a very bad idea and quite illegal. I'm not talking about Atticus there--he was on the sidewalk and the dogs appeared to be about to hit him. He only had the blade as a last ditch weapon and thankfully he didn't have to try to use it.

Do you understand?

 

[deanf]

Oh, I understand.

You're stirring the pot by opening up discussions in this thread that have very little nexus to the problem presented by the original poster.

Please comment on my "reasonable man" thesis.

 

[Cosmoline]

Yes, that's me, Cosmoline the troll

I was trying to explore some of the problems with being too assertive with the problem of aggressive dogs.

Atticus behaved as a perfectly reasonable man. I think I've already said that.

A reasonable man WOULD NOT leave his daughters in the street and try to go onto the lawn and stab at the dog because he thinks he knows how to kill it with his ninja blade. That's just silly.

 

[ArmedBear]

As someone who knows a bit about dogs, I am shocked at how many people think a dog running up with a big grin is "baring its teeth."

I'm going to assume, however, that you know how to read dog behavior.

I, personally, wouldn't shoot someone in front of his kids if I could help it. It's called being a decent human being. I also don't have a dog who would attack, and I know what to expect from her.

That said, if someone shoots my dog on my property, or points a gun in the direction of my front door, and I see him, then he needn't worry about his legal standing. It's my property, he is pointing a gun in my direction. When his body is picked up, after I call 911, I think I'll have little to worry about.

My point? People can be pretty fond of our dogs and not very fond of people pointing guns in our direction, on our property. Just something to think about. I hope it is never an issue, and I certainly won't put my dog in that position, either.

 

[Lupinus]

THERE ARE SEVERAL DIFFERENT ISSUES.

None brought up by anyone but YOU. You seem to think that someone said they would walk halfway across your property to slit your dogs throat. And NO ONE said anything remotly close to that. If your dog charges me it initiated the situation not me. And I am tired of hearing out your big bad super dog that is immune to a knife blade. It isn't what id prefer but it is better then nothing. Give me a knife of my choosing and let your dog launch itself at me see how long it last's. And you seem pretty eagar to pull the trigger. Part of reasonable force is REASONABLE, key word there. You know you have violent animals with no proper fence and me in a fight with them within a few feet of a sidewalk and shoot me instead of them you are a moron that deserves to have your rifle shoved where the sun don't shine. Along with whats left of your dogs when I get done with them.

You clearly DO NOT understand what I just told you, Travis. Read my post again slowly.

Cause you stopped making sense in your first post of this thread. Could read it as slow as humanly possible and it wouldn't make sense. It sums up to this- You see dog and me in a fight you shoot to kill. You don't take five seconds to think gee, maybe he was on the sidewalk and my dog attacked him? You have to stop and thinking before pulling that trigger its called responsability.

Some of the responses seemed to indicate if a dog was barking at your kids you could go onto a stranger's property and kill it

Where? Show me WHERE it says that other in your mind. No one said they are going to kill your dog for looking at them cross eyed or barking a little. What was said if your dog charges me its time on this earth is quickly coming to an end and I don't give a rats behind if getting myself into a defensive possestions means I have to set a few feet onto your oh so sacred property.

A reasonable man WOULD NOT leave his daughters in the street and try to go onto the lawn and stab at the dog because he thinks he knows how to kill it with his ninja blade. That's just silly.

:banghead:
No he lets the dog attack them and then trys pulling them off. He doesn't put himself between them and the violent mutts with the only weapon he has at his disposal.

And you keep calling them your early warning system. Fine, they can bark all they like if they are secured. Heck they can back at me all they want from the porch or lawn. But there is a difference between that so you can poked your gun out the window and peek through your scope and them charging me and my children on a public sidewalk because you let them run around loose. Secure them or dont have dangerous animals.

That said, if someone shoots my dog on my property, or points a gun in the direction of my front door, and I see him, then he needn't worry about his legal standing. It's my property, he is pointing a gun in my direction. When his body is picked up, after I call 911, I think I'll have little to worry about.

And now someone is pointing a gun at YOU?!?
Where is this crap coming from? There wasn't even a gun in the origional post. And if there was you are going to shoot me for pointing it at your charging dogs to stop them before they attack my kids? :banghead:

 

[Cosmoline]

None brought up by anyone but YOU.

I was trying to explore the different aspects of the issue. Sorry if I upset you.

YIf your dog charges me it initiated the situation not me. And I am tired of hearing out your big bad super dog that is immune to a knife blade. It isn't what id prefer but it is better then nothing. Give me a knife of my choosing and let your dog launch itself at me see how long it last's.

Oh, that would be a mistake Or are you planning on using the special wall climbing boots and the extra ceramic plates? You will note that the only thing keeping my buddy from launching into the air is a VERY thick training leash attached to a spruce tree. And he's only half serious there because I'm the one agitating him just off screen. There's more than enough power in those jaws to snap both wrist bones on a man. He's been trained to latch onto the arm with a full bite and break it. An untrained working line dog or one trained on a full body suit will "corn cob" the attacking arm rendering it a bloody stick of hamburger in about five seconds. Then he will go to work on the neck, face, privies, or whatever takes his fancy. This is why I say don't attack a serious dog with a knife unless it's your last option. Don't even attack a bluffing dog with a knife, since a cut can give them courage. A very heavy club with some length to it is preferable if you don't have a firearm. The last thing you want to do is reach in there. You might as well try to attack an industrial meat grinder with a fork.

 

[Janitor]

You might as well try to attack an industrial meat grinder with a fork.

+1

This isn't exactly what I was thinking when I first read that Atticus had pulled his knife. It's a much better analogy than anything I came up with. I'm sure that at that moment, with the dogs charging and his daughters there, nothing else came to mind at all. But a knife? Hmmmm - I'm fairly sure that even if I were a level three mall ninja with a shirken of power I'd still think of attacking a large, angry dog with a knife as a pretty bad idea.

Dogs tend to get REALLY PISSED OFF REALLY FAST when they're wounded.

How fast? Blink your eye for a clue.

Another issue is strength.

How strong? IIRC, a dog is something like three times as strong per lb as a man - if it's a big dog like Cosmo's above, thnk of being attacked by a large linebacker with insanely great coordination and large pointy teeth.

*shudder* nasty stuff.

-

 

[Sleeping Dog]

a while back an off duty cop shot dead a local man's dog for fear of his children as the dog rounded the corner and was supposedly threatening, that aspect was disputed, but I doubt anything came of it.

Key word: Cop. Different rules apply.

Regards.

 

[The Crazy Gobbo]

My family lived in the Bahamas for three years. We observed some very poor handling of guard dogs. Also, more than one attack. A 200 pound, well muscled man, with a machette in hand, has little chance against a charging 100lb dog. His friend might, but that's small consolation.

Minor observation, you don't want to get hit with a machette.


I have to say, at the end of Page 1 I was trying to sort out in my head the exact angle at which the horns in Cosmoline's head grew out.

Past that I had a good chuckle watching others trying to make clear their thoughts. I could just see 10 or 11 other jurors beating you to death with leftover takeout chopsticks so they could get the job done.

Post #54 Cosmoline
"Only if it's off its owner's property or you reasonably believe it's about to come off its property."

That's pretty clear, eh?

 

[Lupinus]

Nice picture of the big bad doggy
I never said I'd come out unscathed, I said I wouldn't let a dog get at my kids cause the only weapon I had was a knife and that I would win. I never said a word about being superman ninja and coming out without a scratch. Let ot break my arm and rip it up. Hell let him tear it up so bad I wind up loosing it. My little girls still have their faces and you got a dead dog. But then Im dead cause your mangey mutt attacked me and you blew my head off splattering my brains on my kids faces .
You have guard dogs put up a real fence of don''t leave them unsupervised. Otherwise you are a complete moron that doesn't deserve a dog let alone a gun.

In simpler terms for you- Never said it would be the best weapon for the job or it would mean coming out unscathed, but it will get the job done.

My family lived in the Bahamas for three years. We observed some very poor handling of guard dogs. Also, more than one attack. A 200 pound, well muscled man, with a machette in hand, has little chance against a charging 100lb dog. His friend might, but that's small consolation.

Did super dog walk away without a scratch cause of its built in super dog body armor?