Let slide slam shut or ease it back?

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Northslope Nimrod

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I'm getting conflicting advise.
Advisor #1: On 1911's, this guy recommends letting the slide slam shut by releasing the slide release (empty mag). He advises AGAINST holding the slide back..hence, easing it back into place. He indicates that there is a part in the 1911's that can be broken if one eases the slide forward. I asked about BHP's and he indicated that the BHP's lacked the part...thus no concern with easing the slide forward on a BHP.

Advisor #2: This guy was teaching my friend's CCW course. He didn't mention 1911's specifically, but was holding a Kimber 1911 while he stated this. He advised to ease the slide forward when there is no round present. Let it slam shut if one is present. He indicated that a 'part' will bend if the slide slams shut without a round. BUT, if the round is present, the part is held in place against the round.

I am not a gunsmith. I like to shoot 'em. I like to keep them nice. Help me understand this.
 
I've been told by several 1911 guys that the sear gets beat up by letting the slide slam shut empty. Some are weaker than others, but the recommendation was for all 1911's. Anyone else?
Josh (drooling for my long-awaited custom 1911!)
 
Ease it shut, Slamming will casue excessive wear eventually.

OTOH its going to happen to any gun eventually -- first time you get a mag that doesn't lock the slide back, or fire with the mag not completely inserted. So I'm of the opinion its not much of a gun if doing this breaks it, a steady diet of it is not good though and will cause problems eventually.

Easing it forward when loading is asking for a failure. Feeding the round cushions the blow of the slide coming forward -- the way it was designed to.

Use the search, this has been beaten to death.

--wally.
 
If you're not chambering a round its better to ease the slide down to reduce wear.

If you are chambering a round, you need to let the slide slam shut on its own or it may not fully seat into battery.


If the slide is locked back on an empty mag, the best way to chamber a round is to pull back the slide and let go instead of flipping the slide stop down (as this wears the slide stop much faster).


Dropping the slide with the slide stop lever and letting the slide slam shut on an empty chamber is not going to break anything (guns are pretty robust machines), however you do shorten the life of some parts (like the slide stop).
 
I just called a smith about this very thing today. I had trigger work done on a Mil Spec. Now, when I let the slide slam shut on an empty chamber, maybe once out of five times the hammer will drop to half cock. I called the smith and he said not to worry, this is normal. He stated that you shouldn't do this but if you must, hold the trigger back while dropping the slide. This will keep the disconnector from being damaged. When you drop the slide on a loaded magazine, the chambered round slows the slide down enough that things don't get bunged up.
 
Thanks

I did eventually find some other threads. There is still a lot of argument...but I have determined to cease and desist all practice of dropping the slide on an empty mag. (unless necessary).
 
Misconceptions

Just to clear up a few here...

Easing the slide forward on empty won't break anything. The disconnector
gets cammed down by the slide exactly the same, regardless of how fast or slow the slide moves.

There is the issue of hammer/sear bounce if the slide slams on empty, but
it's not critical unless it has a finely-tuned trigger job, and the trigger itself is the main culprit. It stands still as the gun jerks forward and nudges the disconnect...which in turn bumps the sear. If the gun has a lightened or lower tension mainspring in it, the hammer can "bounce" slightly and lose a little of the full contact with the sear. When that happens, along with the
trigger nudge/sear bump...the hammer follows the slide. More likely to occur with shortened hammer hooks, light mainsprings, tweaked sear springs and heavy breakaway angles, especially if a heavy steel trigger is used with the modified trigger group/fire control parts. Skeletonized or lightened hammers and triggers make it less likely.

The parts that come under damaging stresses during an empty gun, full-speed
slide release are the lower barrel lug and the slidestop pin, which absorb all the impact afforded by a 16-ounce slide propelled by a 16 or 18 pound recoil spring.

Cheers...
 
Advisor #1 is an Idiot.......

If you have a chance read Ed Brown's Bench Manual.....

There's enough good reason to hand cycle the 1st. round into battery.
 
He advised to ease the slide forward when there is no round present. Let it slam shut if one is present.
Click to expand...
THIS is the correct manual of arms.

C. H. Luke said:
Advisor #1 is an Idiot
Click to expand...
That's the understatement of the week. So many things #1 said are pure poppycock. But to be polite, to his face, I'm simply call him a buffoon.
 
Sooo, do I have a problem or not? The parts involved are a Brownell's solid aluminum trigger, Ed Brown hammer and sear, Springfield Armory stock mainspring, sear spring and disconnector. The trigger is set at 4-4.25#'s and no creep. The smith I used is well established and has a good reputation. I have no reason to doubt what he told me. Perhaps one of us was confused? The pistol only does this when it is lightly held and the grip safety is depressed. I tried it holding the trigger back like he suggested and the hammer did not fall.
 
Misunderstood

Howdy Chuck,

Many trigger smiths use the slide slam to check their trigger jobs for hammer follow. Pretty much standard procedure, but I don't advise makin' a habit of it. As long as the hammer doesn't follow when the gun is going to battery on a round, there's not a problem.

The reason that the hammer doesn't follow when you hold the trigger is because when the trigger is pulled, it keeps the disconnect from resetting
between the trigger stirrup and the sear. The trigger can't bump the disconnect under inertia...The disconnect can't bump the sear, and the sear doesn't rotate out of the hammer hooks. This used to be standard practice on bullseye guns with fine-tuned triggers when all they had to work with was
heavy steel triggers. Lightened fire control parts and improved methods have
made this old hat.

If the grip safety isn't depressed, it blocks trigger movement, so that's the reason that it won't follow unless it's depressed. Holding the gun loosely allows the gun to move farther forward when the slide hits the stoppin' point...which makes the trigger nudge the disconnect a little harder. The trigger is obeying Newton's dictum that objects at rest tend to remain at rest. When the gun jerks forward, the trigger stands still and bumps the disconnect. With the shortened hammer hooks, the sear doesn't have to move as much to get clear of'em.

Clear as fog...Right? :D
 
Morning Tuner,
Thanks for the detail. It does clear things up. My major concern was the gun going full auto when I'm loading up and shooting myself in the head. :eek:
 
Follow down is checked when the gun goes into battery without the trigger being depressed during live fire, any 1911 that the hammer falls on with the trigger pulled during and continues to be pulled while going to battery better have the disconnector checked. True follow down can be caused by a weak trigger spring, weak sear spring, a negative sear angle or trigger hooks, the trigger is to heavy or the bow pad is to close plus a few other causes. Follow down of any kind is something to worry about no matter what the cause.
 
ease forward generally.. if not can cause excessive wear and also esp. on competition guns throw out your trigger work. Slam shut only on loading a round and I recommend the sling shot method over the slide release lever method...
 
Not trying to hijack the thread here but I felt this was along similar lines. If not I apologize. I was recently handling a friends full size Kimber (not sure which model) and used my thumb to gently lower the hammer. He told me that doing this can eventually damage the gun in some way. Could someone please explain this to me?
 
Damage?

Howdy Thrash...Doesn't look like a hijack from here.

The only thing that comes to mind is that if the trigger isn't held fully rearward, the sear can snag the half-cock notch on its way down...which isn't really good for it, but it wouldn't likely do any damage, since the hammer is coming down slow and gentle-like. A finely honed sear would be more suscebtible to a problem, but it would require several "hits" in order to do it.
In any event, as long as the hammer is lowered carefully, with due attention paid to holding the trigger all the way back, it won't hurt a thing.

This is another one of those jewels of knowledge that falls in the same class as hand-cycling the slide damages the disconnector and that shock buffs are necessary to prevent destroying the frame in 500 rounds...Your friend took somebody's word for something that they themselves didn't completely understand...
 
>> Your friend took somebody's word for something that they themselves didn't completely understand... <<

Seems to be a lot of that going around lately ...
 
1911Tuner - since you're paying attention to this thread, perhaps you could help me out with this:

I was under the impression that one of the reasons not to let a slide slam forward on an empty chamber is because when a round IS chambered it helps to absorb some of the impact of the forward movement of the slide. Any truth to that?

My HS English teacher would smack me for writing sentence with that many words in it....
 
Instinctively I agree that 'tis better to ease it forward than drop.

So with that in mind while I was checking out a buddy's Steel Challenge top fuel race gun done by a well known race gun builder. He gave it to me in "gunny-polite" manner with the slide locked open and told me to try the trigger out by dry firing it. Cool, so I eased the slide forward (was like running on ball bearings) and boy-o-boy did I catch a ration of...

Apparently said builder and Mr. Tuner (with common sense on Tuner's side) are at odds. Said builder commands that the slide shouldn't be ridden forward for some voodoo mystery reason. I'd ask my buddy next time I see him, but that would probably stir up a hornet's nest. Oh well, opinions... ;)
 
re:

Time limited today...Responding to Liquid Tension and larryw.

Tension...That reason is absolutely correct. The feeding round acts as a brake to slow the slide on its way to battery. Look at all the factors involved.

The resistance that the magazine offers...The inertial resistance to movement of the round. The friction of the feed ramp and the barrel throat
as the round is forced to climb upward at an angle. The resistance of the extractor as the rim cams it open. Finally, the friction of the round as it enters the chamber and seats. All these things serve to slow the slide and reduce the impact. Without the round present, all that resists the slide is
the friction between the rails and wind...which ain't a lot.

Larryw...Your guy isn't the first builder of pistols that I've encountered that doesn't fully understand the design and function. Consider this...

Remove the top-end of the gun and look at the slidestop pin and the radius of the lower lug feet. Slip the pin through the link and swing it into the radius
so that the back of the pin rests in the radius. There! That contact is what brings the slide to a stop. That small area in that lug radius is absorbing 95%
of the momentum and impact imposed on the 16-ounce slide and bushing assembly, propelled by a 16 or 18-pound spring. If you took two hammers and smacked them together with the same force, it wouldn't take long for the heads to start to deform...and the barrel steel isn't nearly as hard or as tough as a hammer head.

The lower lug can be beaten rearward, affecting the barrel unlock and linkdown timing. The lower lug itself can be pulled away from the barrel
at the front through the shearing forces multiplied by the levering action.
The slidestop pin is subject to impact and shearing forces. The slidestop
pin hole in the frame is battered and will become elongated or even crack the frame adjacent to the hole at the bottom...especially in alloy frames.

The gun is engineered to withstand a certain amount of abuse due to letting the slide slip or a failure to lock on empty occasionally...but I know of guns
that the owners sat around and played with, repeating the slam repeatedly
because it looked or sounded "cool"...and by the time they noticed that the slides were sitting forward of flush with the frames...the damage was done.
If they were lucky, it only involved the barrels...Some didn't pay any attention until they noticed that the slidestops were moving fore and aft
as the slides were hand-cycled...and some had cracked frames at the bottom of the pin hole.

Luck!
 
I have met some so-called gunbuilders and owners that had guns on the tight side who advocated the slide be dropped under all circumstances to insure the slide went into battery. They also installed extra-heavy recoil springs and buffers to insure the slide and frame wouldn't batter during the rearward part of the cycle.

Asking them whould happen during the slide's return trip would bring a blank look.

I think a lot of these guys do what the do because they've heard that (insert name of famous builder) does it that way.

It is a tribute to John Browning that in spite of what they do the pistols (usually) work anyway.
 
Drawin' a Blank

Fuff said:

>Asking them whould happen during the slide's return trip would bring a blank look.<
**************

Oh yeah! And one can become immensely unpopular by pointing out the obvious. In this case, to wit: That spring works in both directions... :p
 
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