Light and fast .44 loads?

[stingray4540]

so I randomly stumbled on these loads from RBCD using 110 gr. Bullets with 2,000fps in 44 special and 2,400fps in 44mag. Granted, these are high frangible bullets that I’m not interested in, but it got me thinking.
Those numbers are 30-30 territory. Has anyone played with pushing 150ish gr bullets out of a .44 lever action at 2,000+ FPS?
I searched the google and found nothing. Everyone wants to talk about heavy loads with .44, but why not hotrod a lighter bullet to get longer range and flatter trajectory? Seems like it would be a great deer round. Well it is actually, because that is what the 30-30 has been doing successfully forever.

Do the sub 200gr bullets not stabilize well in .44 lever actions? Or has no one really thought about turning their .44 into a 30-30?
I’m not a reloader or else I’d be up all night loading different light weight loads just to experiment with. I hate when I can’t find answers on the internet, my curiosity is killing me.
Someone please explain why this is a bad idea, and just tell me I’m an idiot and to go to bed.

 

[Charlie98]

Bullet stability depends on the rifling... as I found out in a .45 Colt Marlin 1894 with very slow 1:38 rifling. Heavy bullets wouldn't stabilize at lower velocities.

Shooting 215grn .41 cal bullets in my 1894 under W296 will get them to about 1800fps, it's probably likely you could drive a 200grn .44 bullet to 2000fps, but you would probably be tapping max pressure to do it, and accuracy with the very fat bullet, compared to a slender .30 .30-30 bullet, might be something else.

 

[troy fairweather]

i shoot 200 cast bullets that are powder coated at about 2000 fps maybe more from my marlin 44 mag. these shoot good and don't have much drop, i use 21.6 grain of 2400 the 21.6 is the lee dipper so loading is fast. a 44 mag out of a rifle can push a 200 jacketed as fast as a 35 remington. i did try some 452 lead bullets that i size to .430 and coated they were about 160gr with the same 21,6 still shot very good.

what gun do u have.

 

[RecoilRob]

Very light for caliber bullets...unless made of something much lighter than lead end up being very short little cylinders with horrible BC's. Yes you can drive them very fast, but they also will then shed that velocity rapidly so they remain a short range proposition and penetration is most often pretty sketchy so the size of critter they can be effective on is much reduced.

Even alternate material bullets that can have a decent size and aerodynamic form will lack momentum and therefore penetration and still shed velocity due to lack of mass driving it through the thick atmosphere. There are very good reasons you don't often see 100 grain 44 bullets as they'll be much less than a round ball and just not a great projectile.

 

[LRDGCO]

Won't the problem be bullet selection? If not on paper, then in practice, wide meplat .430 bullets in the 240 grs range from a rifle are awfully good on deer out to 100 yards anyway, certainly don't seem much less effective than the 30-30 at that range. After that, to keep speeds up, it needs shedding bullet weight and diminishing returns abound.

The 44 that does what you're talking about is the 444 Marlin: 265 grs at 2,400 fps and a 250 yard MPBR. Fantastic cartridge.

But no reason not to see where you can get with the likes of the Hornady 180 grs XTP for speed. Barnes 200 grs XPB might be interesting too. I just can't say that the terminal ballistics of these bullets will deliver at 175 - 200 yards. Heavy cast bullets will, but you've lost your 44 Express with those. Interesting idea to explore! Best of luck and keep us informed.

 

[gotboostvr]

A bullet with that poor of a sectional density would penetrate very poorly on deer sized game. It should work well as a varmint round though. It won't "fly" as well as a 150gr 30cal.

 

[stingray4540]

Just a quick question outside of the quotes below. Do reloaders calculate ballistics for their loads, like velocity and drop and different distances?

i shoot 200 cast bullets that are powder coated at about 2000 fps maybe more from my marlin 44 mag. these shoot good and don't have much drop, i use 21.6 grain of 2400 the 21.6 is the lee dipper so loading is fast. a 44 mag out of a rifle can push a 200 jacketed as fast as a 35 remington. i did try some 452 lead bullets that i size to .430 and coated they were about 160gr with the same 21,6 still shot very good.

what gun do u have.

Interesting. So my thought process isn’t too far off in the real world.

None yet, but I’m planning to pick up one of those skinner specials at some point, and I have a gp100 in .44 special on its way.

Very light for caliber bullets...unless made of something much lighter than lead end up being very short little cylinders with horrible BC's. Yes you can drive them very fast, but they also will then shed that velocity rapidly so they remain a short range proposition and penetration is most often pretty sketchy so the size of critter they can be effective on is much reduced.

Even alternate material bullets that can have a decent size and aerodynamic form will lack momentum and therefore penetration and still shed velocity due to lack of mass driving it through the thick atmosphere. There are very good reasons you don't often see 100 grain 44 bullets as they'll be much less than a round ball and just not a great projectile.

This is kinda what I thought the problem was, but it seems there are 160 and 180 gr. Bullets available for .44 so maybe they have enough aerodynamics? Or maybe like you said that they still lose velocity and trajectory too fast and end up not much different than heavier bullets past 100 yards?
This however, gets me thinking about alternative bullet designs. I’m sure the manufacturers have already played with this kinda stuff and that is why it doesn’t exist, cause it doesn’t work? What I would give for some time to play at a cartridge manufacturer’s r&d facility.

Won't the problem be bullet selection? If not on paper, then in practice, wide meplat .430 bullets in the 240 grs range from a rifle are awfully good on deer out to 100 yards anyway, certainly don't seem much less effective than the 30-30 at that range. After that, to keep speeds up, it needs shedding bullet weight and diminishing returns abound.

The 44 that does what you're talking about is the 444 Marlin: 265 grs at 2,400 fps and a 250 yard MPBR. Fantastic cartridge.

But no reason not to see where you can get with the likes of the Hornady 180 grs XTP for speed. Barnes 200 grs XPB might be interesting too. I just can't say that the terminal ballistics of these bullets will deliver at 175 - 200 yards. Heavy cast bullets will, but you've lost your 44 Express with those. Interesting idea to explore! Best of luck and keep us informed.

Ah, but that is it, I want to push .44 to 150+ yards and more importantly reduce bullet drop and increase point blank range. Hence my following this rabbit hole.
Yeah, bullet selection is maybe the problem? Well if it don’t exist, maybe I need to make it? If only I didn’t have to work for a living...
I guess I need to learn how to reload and play with the 180 and 200 gr options that already exist.

A bullet with that poor of a sectional density would penetrate very poorly on deer sized game. It should work well as a varmint round though. It won't "fly" as well as a 150gr 30cal.

Kinda what i was thinking would be the case regarding flight.
But regarding sectional density, so you are saying that 150gr projectile that is slightly shorter and fatter will penetrate that much less than a 150gr projectile that is slightly longer and thinner? This doesn’t make sense to me, don’t 30 cal hunting bullets expand anyways? Maybe I don’t understand the dynamics at play but I can’t understand how projectile going the same speed and the same weight would penetrate significantly differently just because the projectile shape changed a little. Of course that’s assuming stable flight and ability to maintain similar speeds.

 

[gotboostvr]

Kinda what i was thinking would be the case regarding flight.
But regarding sectional density, so you are saying that 150gr projectile that is slightly shorter and fatter will penetrate that much less than a 150gr projectile that is slightly longer and thinner? This doesn’t make sense to me, don’t 30 cal hunting bullets expand anyways? Maybe I don’t understand the dynamics at play but I can’t understand how projectile going the same speed and the same weight would penetrate significantly differently just because the projectile shape changed a little. Of course that’s assuming stable flight and ability to maintain similar speeds.

The wider bullet will slow down faster since its carrying less momentum. A 180gr 30 cal will punch through like an ice pick compared to a 180gr 429cal which will act more like an ashtray. A very traumatic, shallow wound. Great on yotes', a bad day of tracking a deer though. I've seen light for caliber bullets in the 44 fail often on our whitetail. A 240-250gr will punch a clean 1" hole through both shoulders without having to push the velocity unnecessarily hard.

 

[troy fairweather]

the 44-40 wcf has killed many deer and man for a long time they run 800-1400 fps depending on the load and range. yes the thinner bullets do penitrate better but the deer me and my dad have killed most times the 200.gr 44 exits the shoulders. a nice flat point bullet does help make a better hole then the round nose ones.

 

[25-20 WCF]

Bullet design can be more important than just weight. The original SuperVel .44 Magnum loadings used 180-grain bullets at a very high velocity (for that time) and they gave excellent performance on medium game. Why? Because they gave little expansion and thus penetrated well. The original Sierra 180-grain HCs were also vety tough, Sierra even stating that the bullet was the best for medium game. Their current bullets appear to be softer.

.

 

[ATLDave]

The wider bullet will slow down faster since its carrying less momentum.

Well that's objectively wrong. Two objects of the same mass/weight and velocity carry precisely the same momentum. It literally does not matter what their shape is. As in, the equation for momentum has two inputs: mass and velocity. There's nowhere to plug in shape of object.

What the fatter object has is a wider area being exposed to the drag/resistance of air and/or fluid and/or solid. That's why, all else being equal, a skinnier projectile of the same momentum (weight and speed) will often penetrate better.

 

[gotboostvr]

Well that's objectively wrong. Two objects of the same mass/weight and velocity carry precisely the same momentum. It literally does not matter what their shape is. As in, the equation for momentum has two inputs: mass and velocity. There's nowhere to plug in shape of object.

What the fatter object has is a wider area being exposed to the drag/resistance of air and/or fluid and/or solid. That's why, all else being equal, a skinnier projectile of the same momentum (weight and speed) will often penetrate better.

I was pretty sure that wasn't the correct term, but wasn't able to better articulate what I meant. Thank you.

 

[ATLDave]

Do the sub 200gr bullets not stabilize well in .44 lever actions? Or has no one really thought about turning their .44 into a 30-30?

Get in your car. Roll down the windows. Get up to 30 mph or so. Now stick your hand out the window. Make a karate-chop hand shape and point the fingertips into the air that your hand is being driven through. Feel the resistance? OK, now turn your hand upright, so that your palm is facing forward. Feel how much more resistance you get?

Your palm-into-the-wind orientation is the analog of a very light-for-caliber bullet. Lots of drag.

 

[Bat Rastard]

Many moons ago I pursued driving 180 jhp's fast from a 44mag. I found the bullets to lack the structural integrity for high velocities on impact.
This was with a 6inch barrel and a well known bullet.
I switched to 240's and it's all good.

 

[stingray4540]

Get in your car. Roll down the windows. Get up to 30 mph or so. Now stick your hand out the window. Make a karate-chop hand shape and point the fingertips into the air that your hand is being driven through. Feel the resistance? OK, now turn your hand upright, so that your palm is facing forward. Feel how much more resistance you get?

Your palm-into-the-wind orientation is the analog of a very light-for-caliber bullet. Lots of drag.

That is quite a bit of an over exaggeration of what is happening. I understand the dynamics and the point you are trying to make, but the difference between a .30” cylinder and a .40” cylinder aren’t quite as dramatic as the difference between a horizontal hand and a vertical hand.
The question is not whether a .44 can be as aerodynamic and fast as a .30 can be.
The question is, can you drive a .44 magnum projectile to 2,000+ FPS and maintain stability and velocity past 100 yards to achieve similar ballistics to traditional 30-30 loads.
Making grand generalizations isn’t helpful to a more nuanced conversation.

 

[stingray4540]

Many moons ago I pursued driving 180 jhp's fast from a 44mag. I found the bullets to lack the structural integrity for high velocities on impact.
This was with a 6inch barrel and a well known bullet.
I switched to 240's and it's all good.

Interesting. Seems like a bullet construction issue. How fast were you pushing those 180grs?

 

[ATLDave]

And driving 30 mph doesn't generate anything approaching the levels of drag that supersonic airflow does.

Hornady's lightest .429 (.44 mag) bullet offering has a BC of .138 - and that's at 180 grains. Their standard 30-30 bullet has a BC of .274.* It's not close. I'm not exaggerating. You are simply failing to appreciate the aerodynamics.

*Both are G1 factors.

 

[Bat Rastard]

Interesting. Seems like a bullet construction issue. How fast were you pushing those 180grs?

Sadly I am not a record keeper. It would have been a max-ish charge of H110. The Hodgdon site tells me that would have been 1700-1800 fps.

 

[mcb]

And driving 30 mph doesn't generate anything approaching the levels of drag that supersonic airflow does.

Hornady's lightest .429 (.44 mag) bullet offering has a BC of .138 - and that's at 180 grains. Their standard 30-30 bullet has a BC of .274.* It's not close. I'm not exaggerating. You are simply failing to appreciate the aerodynamics.

*Both are G1 factors.

Right, that difference is pretty huge external-ballistically speaking. If you plug both of those BC numbers into a ballistic program it becomes very evident. The .138 BC bullet (assuming a 2000 fps initial velocity) will have, at 100 yards, lost ~25% of its initial velocity and ~45% of its initial kinetic energy. Where a bullet with a .274 BC and an initial velocity of 2000 fps will have only lost ~14% of its initial velocity and 26% of in initial kinetic energy at 100 yards.

The difference between .308 diameter and .430 diameter might not seem much, but do the math. The frontal area of the 44 Mag bullet is presenting nearly twice (1.94x) the frontal area compared to a 30-30 bullet, to the air it is passing through.

IMHO with 44 Mag you're better off using a heavier bullet and dealing with the rainbow trajectory. Like others my favorite 44 Mag load is a 240gr JHP for both my Revolver and Carbine. 180 gr and lighter 44 Mag is more bark (muzzle blast and flash) than bite compared to the heavier 44 Mag loads.

 

[ATLDave]

IMHO with 44 Mag your better off using a heavier bullet and dealing with the rainbow trajectory.

You get a rainbow trajectory with a .44 regardless.... with a heavier bullet, it's a more uniform rainbow, but with a light bullet, it starts with less curve, then gets more and more curved as time and distance pass. (A difference of degree, to be sure.)

 

[Karl.T]

I own several .44Sp revolvers and all my loads used 180 or 200gr bullets. I did some 44Mag loads for the Marlin 1894 using the surplus bullets I had and found the 200gr cast rnfp performed best on the low/mid level out of the 20" barrel. The 180gr was ok for plate shooting at 25-50 yards running at 44Sp to low magnum velocities but didnt group well out of my rifle at 100 yards. For me I stick with the 200gr now because it works in my Specials and Mags. Taken several whitetail and a number of hogs with the 200gr cast rnfp and never had to track or make a followup shot.