Light carbine concept

[cluttonfred]

I mentioned here years ago that I wished more rifles were available in .30 Carbine. I love the M1 Carbine but they are all pretty long in the tooth now and it's hard to find a good one. The cartridge is fun to shoot and more than adequate at short range. Here's a quick description of what I wish I could find:

• Semi-automatic carbine (probably gas-operated but other actions possible) chambered in .30 Carbine;
• Lightweight (5 lb or less), simple to operate, affordable;
• Ambidextrous operation (cocking/safety/ejection);
• Synthetic stock similar to a Ruger Mini-14 or 10/22 with rear bar(s)/attach points for carrying across the back plus single-point sling attachment points on either side;
• Iron sights standard: aperture rear sight and fluorescent (optionally tritium) front post, both protected;
• Picatinny rail standard for those that want optics, probably forward ("Scout" position) to keep the action clear;
• 5- or 10-round internal box magazine;
• 5- or 10-round stripper clip loading perhaps using wrap-around clips like the Swiss cardboard-and-steel but in a modern thermoplastic for reuse and long life;
• Barrel not threaded for any muzzle device

I know that those last three points are going to rub some folks the wrong way, but hear me out. I think it's important to keep the base model simple and civilian-looking for wide acceptance even in states or countries with restrictive laws or among people not interested in black rifles. There is also the reliability of a solid internal box magazine that is easy to load with loose rounds if need be and the handiness of a rifle with no magazine sticking out. You could still have an optional "tacticool" model or aftermarket offerings with a drop-in adapter for M1 Carbine magazines, pistol grip stock, optional threaded barrel etc.

The result would be a handy carbine far more powerful, accurate, and user-friendly than any pistol or even an AR for home defense, truck gun, even police use.

Thoughts? I've got my flame-proof undies on!

Cheers,

Matthew

 

[Varminterror]

The .30 Carbine has been around for a long time. If shooters really wanted it, there would have been more models offered for it by now.

 

[MosinT53Hunter]

Taurus came out with one a while back, in 30 carbine, but it was not a success.

 

[LiveLife]

How about Kel-Tec Sub2000 in 40S&W?

 

[Alaskan Ironworker]

How about an sks.

 

[cluttonfred]

Wow, two comments essentially saying "that won't work" or "already been tried" with little more to add and two others suggesting completely different guns. No feedback offered so far on the actual concept, not exactly a supportive bunch....

 

[LiveLife]

handy carbine far more powerful, accurate, and user-friendly than any pistol ... for home defense, truck gun, even police use.

You asked for carbine that is more powerful, accurate and user friendly than pistol for home defense truck gun.

Just provided an option that met most of your criteria that is already available. And if 40S&W is not powerful enough, there are PCC chambered for 10mm.

• Semi-automatic carbine
• Lightweight
• Simple to operate
• Affordable
• Ambidextrous operation
• Synthetic stock
• Iron sights standard
• Picatinny rail standard
• 10/15/30 round box magazine

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

I was musing about the M1 Carbine's reliability problems being due, in part, to the tappet action being marginally underpowered for the purpose. Following this thought, I considered the Mini-14 as a suitable action in size and function. Unfortunately for the OP, my next thought was that I'd still prefer the Mini-14 in .223 Remington over .30 US Carbine, and there the whole idea falls apart.

Perhaps the better solution, given market realities, would be to experiment with an existing commercial M1 Carbine and see whether the recoil spring/tappet system can be tuned for a bit more oomph. Universal played with this idea, but the execution (and QC) left something to be desired.

An improved magazine design that would function interchangeably with USGI might also help. Personally, I'd value a more reliable feeding M1 Carbine PMag much more than stripper clip compatibility.

On the subject of Carbine sight options, one that doesn't get much play these days is the rear Picrail that fits over the receiver dovetail. Now that compact red dot sights are a thing, this seems like a viable place to mount one.

 

[MosinT53Hunter]

I have a Universal Gen 1 M1 Carbine in 30 Carbine. If you want something newer that you can modify at will, why not buy a new Inland or Auto Ordnance M1 Carbine? Has everything you want, its new, lots of parts, and your already familiar with the platform.

I know of no company out there that is producing a rifle like the one you want (unless its a M1 Carbine design). Don't fault us for the truth. There are many better options out there, but you have to compromise on the caliber. Heck, you could even see about trying out the pps 43-c in 7.62x25. Might have to fiddle with it, but its something different.

Just my two cents.

 

[Rule3]

Get a Mini Thirty then

https://www.ruger.com/products/miniThirty/models.html

 

[cluttonfred]

To be clear, I probably contributed to a misunderstanding when I said "what I wish I could find." I am not looking for a gun, I already have a nice original M1 Carbine and I know that what I describe does not exist, the point here was to float a concept for a rifle and get some feedback on that idea.

Dave D. thanks for your thoughts. If I had my druthers I'd love to see a .30 Carbine rifle using something like the CETME/H&K roller-delayed blowback action (CETME, G3, MP5, etc.) or a lever-delayed blowback (various Pál Király designs, FAMAS, etc.) so a fixed barrel and no gas system at all. The fact that pretty much all .30 Carbine ammo mimics the GI-issue 110 gr FMJ loads would make it easier to tune the roller or lever system.

On the sights and rail, MBPR on an M1 Carbine is about 171 yards on a 3" target, so open sights adjustable for zero but just marked for 0-100 or 0-150 yards or meters would be just fine. A little section of rail for optics could be built in or added easily.

 

[Robert]

Buy a lightweight AR in the pistol caliber of your choice, or 300 BO. Use 5 round mags and call it a day.

 

[Varminterror]

the point here was to float a concept for a rifle and get some feedback on that idea.

This point was clear in your OP.

I want to be clear in my point as well - if your idea were good, someone else would be making it already. But they are not, because there is not a sustainable, sufficient market demand for a 30 carbine rifle. Lots of new engineering for a low volume product, for an unpopular cartridge.

 

[Scooter22]

Seems to me if there was a market for it there would be a .30 Carbine upper offered out there with the popularity of the AR platform.

 

[adcoch1]

Other than the stock issue, your rifle idea could be viewed as a California compliant ar15 in 300 blackout. The blk is very similar to a 30 carbine.
I think the sks previously mentioned though is about as close as you can get at the moment, and it isn't so much more powerful than a m1 carbine to be ignored. Plus ammo is everywhere.
The ruger PCC is also pretty darn close by design unless it HAS to be 30 carbine.

 

[cluttonfred]

Wow, it's a good thing (insert name of your favorite innovator or inventor in any field) didn't believe "if your idea were good, someone else would be making it already."

 

[LiveLife]

Lots of new engineering for a low volume product, for an unpopular cartridge.

I agree. And why there are no new pistols chambered for 7.62x25.

The result would be a handy carbine far more powerful, accurate, and user-friendly than any pistol or even an AR for home defense, truck gun, even police use

And this is what I focused on ... lightweight, easy to use, low cost, ambi carbine with more power than pistol.

IMO, 40S&W could be a more practical caliber as ammunition is widely available and ballistics from carbine barrel is better than that from a shorter barrel 9mm pistol. And as I posted, if more power was desired, 10mm would readily provide that.

But for a HD/truck gun, would 10mm be overkill, not to mention higher cost of ammunition? I would think ballistics of 40S&W from 16" carbine barrel should be sufficient for close range defensive shooting.

 

[Mosin Bubba]

@LiveLife's got the right idea with the Kel-Tec Sub 2K, and what you're saying also reminds me a lot of the Ruger PCC. 50 state legal, ambidextrous, shares many parts in common common with the 10/22... the only problem with it IMO is the weight. 7 lbs for a 9mm is just stupid.

 

[Alaskan Ironworker]

Another note on the sks, Its hard to beat the reliability of that folding bayonet for last resort home defense. No picattinny rail though. I was interested in that 9mm m1 carbine design, but I read it was kinda a flop. Only seen one in person and it seemed poorly made.

 

[jmr40]

You and 6 other guys are all that would buy it. There are multiple better options, many already discussed above.

 

[Scooter22]

Wow, it's a good thing (insert name of your favorite innovator or inventor in any field) didn't believe "if your idea were good, someone else would be making it already."

WOW, then reinvent the wheel. You got a bunch of legit answered and don't like em. OK why don't you invent it and market it. It is your idea right. Good luck. Now wheres my Mini 14 or 30, or SKS(s), or Rasheed, or or Camp carbine............

 

[adcoch1]

Now a quality m1c Repro in 9mm? I would buy one of those. The chiappa I think it was was a very poor copy, but if it was usgi quality I'd own one or two.

 

[Varminterror]

Wow, it's a good thing (insert name of your favorite innovator or inventor in any field) didn't believe "if your idea were good, someone else would be making it already."

You’re not an innovator or inventor if you ask - “why doesn’t someone recreate something which has already been made and failed to keep market interest decades ago?”

Wanna bring back carbureted trucks and cars? How about rotary phones?

 

[<*(((><]

Good luck with a 5lb weight limit. The Sub2000 is about the only thing that is going to hit that weight at a cost that is palatable for today's cost driven consumer.

Your best bet is an SKS with a lightweight stock to meet your requirements, but I still think you are going to be hard pressed to get it down to 5lbs.

 

[fireside44]

Wow, two comments essentially saying "that won't work" or "already been tried" with little more to add and two others suggesting completely different guns. No feedback offered so far on the actual concept, not exactly a supportive bunch....

People with a vision don't get support until they are successful with that vision. Nobody wants to slug out the R&D phase because most people have no initiative beyond 9-5 and a flat screen. Also, this is modern USA, we don't design new stuff anymore we just rip off someone else's and say we borrowed it. Congrats for being gutsy enough to think for yourself. If you aren't criticizing your idea harder than these guys it's likely your design will never be hatched.

Unfounately @Varminterror is right. Nobody cares about a 30 carbine. I don't want one. So take some advice and run with your idea in .300 blackout which is a huge up and coming cartridge. That might get some traction. Honestly the first two guns that popped into my head after your post was a Cali compliant AR and a Ruger police carbine. You need to offer a Ruger carbine esque rifle with the power of 300 blackout. Light, powerful, reliable, ban state friendly. I'll be my usual contrarian self and say you have a decent idea. Now you just need a couple demos and more importantly, a marketing scheme.